#0 · Mar 30, 2003, 14:13 · Tom
#1 · Mar 30, 2003, 14:43 · rodentmouse
As for actually being out of body is different, ive only had a few, but those few felt exactly how i thought they would before i ever had an OBE.... my point is maybe whatever you think its like to be OOB, then thats probably what its like...
dont a lot of OBE authors mention that beleifs and expectations shape the experience?
#2 · Mar 30, 2003, 14:48 · Tom
What I am trying to get past is the explanation "just do it" to something more detailed. There has to be a way of describing what happens and what steps are taken in terms of common experiences.
#3 · Mar 30, 2003, 18:41 · timeless
quote:Dear Tom,
Originally posted by Tom
The biggest problem I have with learning astral projection and with trying to explain it to someone else is that it is such a unique experience. This is especially true of the separation from the body. It is hard to imagine what must be done without having any experience of having done it. Descriptions are good, but they are not as good as examples based on common experiences. Is there anything that most people have experienced (or a combination of experiences) that begins to approach what it is like to succeed with astral projection?
How true for me atleast. I could not really put in words what happens because it is such a totally amazing experience. I have tube like projections. I don't try to project it just happens from time to time. For me what happens is that I see a small pin prick of light overhead and then suddenly an amazing flood of love pours into the room that is beyond words and totally relaxes me. It is such an amazing feeling tears roll down my cheeks. My chakras start spinning at a phenomenal rate. Then the light widens and a tube comes down and connects to my head chakra. Then with a small jerk I am out of my body and travelling a million miles a minute. It is similar but different from a near death experience because in near deaths people seem to describe the travel up the tube as happening gradually. Not at super high speeds plus they have a review and meet dead relatives. This does not happen to me though sometimes one of my guides is beside me. When ever I have these experiences I travel so fast it is like my conscious mind starts shearing away sometimes it slows down a little and I can see portals with symbols on them but once I pass a particular portal that is it... my conscious awareness is totally gone and I usually wake up knowing I just had an amazing experience and was somewhere but having little memory of where I was. I do have impressions, a few images and gut feelings of what happened. Perhaps when I pass that particular portal the vibration shift is too incompatible with my mind? I don't know! Anyhow, how could I explain how to have a projection? It just happens to me! And no words seem appropriate to explain it.
Deepest Regards,
timeless
#4 · Mar 31, 2003, 01:45 · Lysear
#5 · Mar 31, 2003, 20:01 · ralphm
#6 · Apr 01, 2003, 01:21 · goingslow
So if anyone has ever held your head down while you try with all your strenght to try to lift it up. But its different of course because of the change in perspective. I was just trying to relate how it actually feels in that moment.
#7 · Apr 01, 2003, 05:20 · Frank
quote:Tom: The big problem is the Astral environment itself; in that you are projecting your focus of awareness into an environment where Thought equals Direct Action. This takes quite a bit of getting used to and is the reason why people's experiences differ (and often differ wildly). Plus there are all the religious, death, and near-death aspects that come into play; along with all the mystical notions of witchcraft, sorcery, devils, demons, dragons, et al.
Originally posted by Tom
The biggest problem I have with learning astral projection and with trying to explain it to someone else is that it is such a unique experience. This is especially true of the separation from the body. It is hard to imagine what must be done without having any experience of having done it.
The potential for misunderstanding, therefore, is quite high (to say the least). Which is why I always maintain that successful Astral Projection is not so much about finding the right "technique" but about gaining the right degree of mental understanding; because even small misunderstandings as to what is truly happening, can cause a person to come to all manner of faulty conclusions.
A typical example of this I came across just yesterday on another BBS. Someone posted giving strong advice against listening to a certain series of Astral Projection tapes, as they gave the person bad nightmares. The accent was that the tapes were, therefore, useless.
It sounds to me like the tapes worked brilliantly. All that probably happened was they had the effect of projecting the person to the Focus 22 state; which is the base-level Astral and the first realm proper where Thought equals Direct Action. At which point the person appears to have met some fairly severe emotional imbalances head-on.
What people such as Monroe attempted to do, was cut a swathe through all the emotive aspects and try to record the Physical/Astral, Astral/Physical transition objectively. Or at least as objective as it was possible to get, at his level of understanding: which was quite advanced as it happened.
quote:Nowadays, more and more people who have attempted to follow the Monroe Phasing method are beginning to publish experiences in common. Perhaps the most common being that of the 3D-Blackness effect at Focus 21. Which is technically not Astral Projection as Focus 21 is the bridge zone between 3-dimensional Physical, and 4-dimensional Astral.
Descriptions are good, but they are not as good as examples based on common experiences. Is there anything that most people have experienced (or a combination of experiences) that begins to approach what it is like to succeed with astral projection?
As for Astral Exploration proper: dreams of the highly-lucid kind I would say begin to approach what it is like. Though please note the stress I place on the word "begin".
Yours,
Frank
#8 · Apr 01, 2003, 06:24 · Frank
quote:
Originally posted by timelessQuoteThis used to happen to me, I called it my "cannonball exit" and it's basically how I used to project for years as I just considered that was how it normally happened for everyone.
Then the light widens and a tube comes down and connects to my head chakra. Then with a small jerk I am out of my body and travelling a million miles a minute.
On discovering such was by no means the case, I set-off on a path to see if I could slow the whole process down, with a view to getting it under a degree of control: which I successfully managed to do. If you wanted, with a little practice, I'm sure you too could slow the process down in the same way I did. With the effect the experience will become much more rewarding.
Difficulty being if you "exit" in an uncontrolled way things tend to continue in an uncontrolled way. For example, many times I'd find myself flying through the Astral and often I'd crash through the scenary. My protective sense of awareness would get to the point where it simply couldn't take it anymore, and I'd be zapped-back to Physical (C1 in Monroe-speak).
The portals you speak of with symbols on them, chances are, will lead to an Astral-Plane Entrance Structure of the kind depicted on the back cover of Astral Dynamics. Though it sounds like you are travelling way too fast to enter them with the requisite degree of control. What you really need to try and do is come to a halt, then approach and enter the portal slowly.
The pin-prick of light and subsequent tube-type portal is typical of what can occur at the Focus 21 state (or 3D-Blackness as it is often called). And the overwhelming feeling of love and peacefulness I'm fairly sure will be your heart-chakra becoming active. Though, again, this energy-centre too seems to be quickly running up to an extreme; when all it should be doing is giving you a sort-of happy, contented buzz.
Yours,
Frank
#9 · Apr 01, 2003, 06:53 · quebec
As many who browse through this site, I am always happy when I see one of your post, and eagerly read it.
I would like to thank you for being so patient and generous with your experiences.
As I have said before, you should write a book!
As you often pointed out, having an OBE is a balancing act, and some of the aspects of the process are hard to explain with the correct wording, and those who are having OBE can relate to what you are explaining. But its more difficult for those like me, who are working hard at getting that first one, to sometime understand.
Since many experienced OBier have written about their experiences, and their different techniques, it gets to be confusing:
Energy work or not, phasing , astral projection, Bruce Moen's approach, 3D-blackness, Focus levels, looking behind the forehead etc...etc...
Your posts have been very informative, in the sense that I am beginning to think that everybody is basicaly talking about the same thing but using a different process in getting there...let me explain.
What you are working at, and what R. Monroe described as "phasing", is "the shifting of awareness", the moving of consciousness from one reality to another, a shift in your "attention", transfering one's attention from the physical to the astral body.
Its in the way to GET THERE that is different and where the confusion arises. That why I think it is hard for those who are working towards that first OBE in understanding the process. For myself, I have done Energy work, search for that 3D-blackness, many different techniques without succes, and the more I try to understand to more confusing it gets. I have gotten those vibrations, heat body surges, "inner subtle movements", loud "pop" sound like a shootgun, waking from a short nap with the memory of being partially out and tugging to get my left arm "out".....but no real OBE yet.
Am I right in saying that the requisite to OBE are:
1- Complete relaxation: listening to tape 2 (Focus 10) as a primer or any other techniques in getting that complete relaxation
2- Attaining that shift in consciousness I mentionned earlier.
All the rest is the result of these two! All the books written are different signposts that occurs along the way, from 1 to 2. But basically the process by itself is automatic IF YOU CAN LEARN THIS "PHASING" FROM THE PHYSICAL TO THE ASTRAL.
Could I ask for some of your time just to describe how you work towards this second part. We know from your numerous posts that you wake around four in the morning, listen to the CD one or twice, lay on your back etc...But I would like more description in the "phasing" of your attention.
I have started to work towards this, what often arises is my mind questionning if I'm doing it right, and gets me in a "mind-trap" always on the look out to analyse if its working or not.
I am at present trying to get my attention in my "inner-self" (hard to use the correct wordings) and feel as if I'm inside this physical body, and keep my attention on this "inner-self". Problem is when my mind starts to question in "where" I should be aware. You know...inside my head, behind eyelids, a little over my head...all these type of questions.
Thanks for your time!
#10 · Apr 01, 2003, 07:41 · timeless
Nowadays, more and more people who have attempted to follow the Monroe Phasing method are beginning to publish experiences in common. Perhaps the most common being that of the 3D-Blackness effect at Focus 21. Which is technically not Astral Projection as Focus 21 is the bridge zone between 3-dimensional Physical, and 4-dimensional Astral.
[quote]
Dear Frank,
What I quoted really struck me. Frequently when I meditate I do reach a state where there is not just a complete calming of my mind but a 'shift' where I feel like I am completely surrounded by nothingness. It is an amazing feeling. Almost like being sucked into outer space without any stars. And it is a sucking feeling like I am being made very small and dense with the direction frequently being down. Like the gravity of the earth just increased by 1000 fold. I have never thought of this as a projection but now I am questioning that supposition? I always thought when I reached this state that this was my 'workspace'. I self reflect here. It seems to bring powerful self reflection because in that state I have a very objective view of self BUT disipline of mind is critical in this state (or is it a space) because things can go very weird very fast if you do not have a mind that keeps on track. Perhaps a few times I did go into low Focus levels like Focus 22 without realizing it. I always terminated fast not really taking time to take in the weird stuff that was happening.
It is odd that with what I considered my only OBE experiences I never went into the blackness (Focus 21). Instead the separation from my body was into bright light and then tremendous speed (holy gees what a rush). It makes the fastest ride at the amusement park feel like nothing. But in all cases this type of OBE happened after I had done a lot of prayer and raising of vibration so I had my mind in a 'good' place.
Anyhow, what I am trying to say is thanks for mentioning the phasing and Focus 21. I will go investigate it now. I have not read much about Monroe's work. Ginny did get me curious about it but I did not do any serious reading. Now I will, especially since I now see it might fit with some of my experiences. THANKS!
Deepest Regards,
timeless
#11 · Apr 01, 2003, 10:32 · Frank
quote:Sounds to me like the 3D-Blackness, or Focus 21 in Monroe-speak.
Originally posted by timeless
Dear Frank,
Frequently when I meditate I do reach a state where there is not just a complete calming of my mind but a 'shift' where I feel like I am completely surrounded by nothingness. It is an amazing feeling. Almost like being sucked into outer space without any stars.
quote:It goes off track because you have entered a realm where Thought begins to equal Direct Action. So a person's state of mind is critical. If you hear me talk about Focus 22 I'll describe it as the first realm proper where Thought equals Direct Action. I use the word "proper" because, technically, this effect begins at the Focus 21 state.
I have never thought of this as a projection but now I am questioning that supposition? I always thought when I reached this state that this was my 'workspace'. I self reflect here. It seems to bring powerful self reflection because in that state I have a very objective view of self BUT disipline of mind is critical in this state (or is it a space) because things can go very weird very fast if you do not have a mind that keeps on track.
Note: I tend to use the word "state" but substitute, "space"; "region"; "realm" or "plane" or whatever other term, as you would prefer.
Focus 21, however, is a sort of half and half realm where you have neither fully left the Physical, nor fully entered the Astral. So that's why it is called a Bridge Zone.
It's quite a comforting place and it comes as no surprise you have naturally found this region a beneficial area for self-reflection. Myself, I went through a phase of just drifting through the blackness listening to Astral music. Something I found rather comforting. But eventually had to stop doing it because it was becoming addictive to the extent it was affecting my progress.
quote:Yes, you have to keep the thoughts in check once you enter the higher realms. One good thing I note is you instinctively terminated the projection the moment things got weird. It's the best way IMO. Problem is, when we project into these realms we don't automatically develop some super sense of conscious awareness all primed and geared for Astral use. Which means we tend to act like a fish out of water for a while at first.
Perhaps a few times I did go into low Focus levels like Focus 22 without realizing it. I always terminated fast not really taking time to take in the weird stuff that was happening.
So when this happens, rather than trying to make things right within the projection, I always maintain it is *way* more beneficial - in the long run - for a person to hop back to Physical, take a few deep breaths, and project again.
quote:LOL: I know exactly what you mean. To me it felt like I had been shot from a cannon! You probably do pass through the various inbetween states, but everything is happening SO fast it is impossible to realise.
It is odd that with what I considered my only OBE experiences I never went into the blackness (Focus 21). Instead the separation from my body was into bright light and then tremendous speed (holy gees what a rush). It makes the fastest ride at the amusement park feel like nothing.
quote:Ah, that changes the context for me slightly. The small pinpoint of light you see at first could well be an aspect of your higher-self making contact with you. Was that along the lines of what you were praying for? I don't mean to intrude so feel free not to answer if that question is too personal.
But in all cases this type of OBE happened after I had done a lot of prayer and raising of vibration so I had my mind in a 'good' place.
It's just that when I very first read your post, where you say you saw the pin-point of light then the overwhelming feeling of love: I thought, yep, sounds like higher-self contact. But then I thought well, given the energetic nature of your "exit", maybe it's an over-excited Heart Chakra. So now I think it could well be the former.
Problem is, people who reside in higher dimensions radiate a kind of energy that makes you feel all humble and gooey inside. They realise this and "turn it down" so to speak, as much as they can. But still, I remember in the early days with Harath and the light he would radiate seemed emotionally blinding. And that's with it turned down to minimum.
But as a person progresses and increases their own radiation, one just blends with another.
Yours,
Frank
#12 · Apr 01, 2003, 14:48 · timeless
quote:Dear Frank,
Originally posted by Frank
Ah, that changes the context for me slightly. The small pinpoint of light you see at first could well be an aspect of your higher-self making contact with you. Was that along the lines of what you were praying for? I don't mean to intrude so feel free not to answer if that question is too personal.
It's just that when I very first read your post, where you say you saw the pin-point of light then the overwhelming feeling of love: I thought, yep, sounds like higher-self contact. But then I thought well, given the energetic nature of your "exit", maybe it's an over-excited Heart Chakra. So now I think it could well be the former.
Problem is, people who reside in higher dimensions radiate a kind of energy that makes you feel all humble and gooey inside. They realise this and "turn it down" so to speak, as much as they can. But still, I remember in the early days with Harath and the light he would radiate seemed emotionally blinding. And that's with it turned down to minimum.
But as a person progresses and increases their own radiation, one just blends with another.
Yours,
Frank
I love answering questions so no problemo. I was actually just doing a prayer for mankind. I never do prayers 'by wrote'. They are just sort of what ever comes to my head. I don't think if I managed to remember the prayer I would project. I very much doubt projection can be based on 'ritual'. Of course you know this but I thought I should mention this. It is not always when I pray. I can be relaxing but thinking 'good' thoughts which I still sort of classify as praying though.
I think the pin point of light was either the tube coming down or my guide. This was my first projection mind you so I was definitely more than a bit excited (filled with energy). Thinking about it I wonder if a great deal of energy was poured into me for my first projection to give me that 'blast' that ensured I left my body.
My second projection I did not see a pinpoint of light. Mind you I had my eyes closed at the time. This was a very interesting projection. It was through a tube like they always are for me. This time it was slower (but you still feel like you are going wicked fast) and I saw a lot of symbols on portals. I imagine you could think of them as doors that I was passing. This time I sensed my guide and asked where I was going. I heard the answer...this I will not tell...other than you could think of it as a school. Anyhow, the portal we were heading towards came up and then I remember a tremendous energy shift. In other words, as soon as I went through the portal that was it. The energy shift was too incompatible for my conscious memory? I woke up remembering everything up to that portal I went through. Now tell me how could anyone experiencing that go to sleep. Nope not possible. I lost consciousness like a blackout that you wake up from.
My other projections have been more similar to my second one then to the first. Next time it happens, I think I will open my eyes again. Just to see.
Many Thanks for the info,
timeless
#13 · Apr 01, 2003, 15:26 · PeacefulWarrior
are the easiest think to compare to the OBE because they are similar and I believe that what a lot of people have thought to be dreams have really been OBE's they either vividly or vaguely remember.
#14 · Apr 02, 2003, 08:59 · Frank
quote:Quebec: I know only too well how you feel. With me I always try to keep things a simple as possible. Plus, I am always willing to try a new slant on things to see what works and what doesn't. Basically, if something doesn't feel right after giving it a fair go I'll happily junk it and try something else.
Originally posted by quebec
Its in the way to GET THERE that is different and where the confusion arises. That why I think it is hard for those who are working towards that first OBE in understanding the process. For myself, I have done Energy work, search for that 3D-blackness, many different techniques without succes, and the more I try to understand to more confusing it gets.
I can understand too where you are coming from when you speak of confusion. You see, when I first started there were no desktop computers. And this topic, even today, is not really something you talk about openly: never mind 20-odd years ago! So there wasn't the whole plethora of information then, like there is today.
quote:The relaxation of the physical body and the shift in consciousness are inextricably linked. So attaining the necessary state of relaxation automatically tends to initiate the shift in consciousness. Conversely, if you initiate the shift in consciousness, your physical body automatically tends to attain the necessary state of physical relaxation.
Am I right in saying that the requisite to OBE are:
1- Complete relaxation: listening to tape 2 (Focus 10) as a primer or any other techniques in getting that complete relaxation
2- Attaining that shift in consciousness I mentionned earlier.
With me, I much prefer working on initiating the shift in consciousness and simply letting the physical body do its "thing" so to speak. Reason being, there is a rather large pitfall you can fall into when taking the physical-body relaxation route.
Problem is, focussing attention on your physical body tends to make you *more* aware of it, not less. To demonstrate this, now focus your attention on your breathing. So immediately you will become aware that you are breathing. Now try and actively forget you are breathing, and you find you won't be able to. In fact, the more you concentrate on trying to forget you are breathing the longer you remain aware of it.
Now shift your focus of attention elswhere, say, make a phone call to a friend (or whatever). As you engage in this other activity chances are, initially, there will be this niggling voice reminding you that you are still breathing. But there will come a point where your focus of attention will become consumed by the other activity. At this point, you will no-longer be aware of your breathing. Then, some time after, you will remember that you forgot.
The above example is very similar to the situation people face when attempting to relax the physical body. Many times I hear people complain about not being able to achieve the requisite state of relaxation. People tell me often they get frustrated because they lay down and try to relax, but after a period of time they can still feel their physical body.
My question is, "How do you know you can still feel your physical body?" Then the person normally comes back saying something to the effect of: well, it's obvious, I know what having a physical body feels like so I can easily recognise whether I can feel it or not.
Problem is, all the while you are recognising the feeling of having a physical body, you are mentally focussed on it. And, just like the breathing example I gave above, the more you mentally focus on something the less you are able to forget about feeling it.
This is why I always suggest to people having these kinds of relaxation problems: rather than actively trying to relax your physical body, instead, switch your focus of attention elsewhere. At the point where your focus of attention becomes entirely consumed, all feeling of your physical body will be lost. Of course, I realise saying this very much begs the question of where, exactly, should your focus of attention be switched to.
quote:First recognise where your focus of attention is currently located. Normally you will find it at the back of your physical eyes. As such, your focus of attention will be on the blackness that normally comes about when you close your eyes in a darkened room.
I am at present trying to get my attention in my "inner-self" (hard to use the correct wordings) and feel as if I'm inside this physical body, and keep my attention on this "inner-self". Problem is when my mind starts to question in "where" I should be aware. You know...inside my head, behind eyelids, a little over my head...all these type of questions.
What you need to do from here is to get your focus of attention upwards into the huge expanse of your mind. This is what the 3D-Blackness is . How you do that is something you have to develop for yourself. It is very tricky to explain (though I am more than happy to try and expand further on this if you wish) and each person's way tends to vary depending on their personality, and what they feel comfortable with.
People have published all manner of techniques but, ultimately, chances are, your success will not depend on you solely finding the right "technique". But it will be more to do with developing the right kind of mental understanding as to how a "technique" you feel comfortable with, can be successfully applied in your case.
Yours,
Frank
PS
A heartfelt thank-you for your very kind comments.
#15 · Apr 02, 2003, 10:24 · quebec
Thank again for taking the time and CARING.
I have recently printed some of your most recent posts, to dwelve on them and try to understand the "fine print" if I can use such an expression.
I am conscious that the points that I wrote in the preceeding post, you have answered in recent replies. Please bear with me in that, when you answer again to the same questions, sometimes the different wording used, help me get a better understanding, of what you are trying to explain.
Trust me that I am not trying to make you lose your time, and that I do read what you write.
Your most recent replies on this post are very usefull, and I am starting to get the point.
Every little bit helps, every new wording helps to better understand.
Thanks again Frank!
#16 · Apr 02, 2003, 10:41 · Frank
Yours,
Frank
#17 · Apr 02, 2003, 11:00 · Adrian
I would also like to add my thanks once again to Frank for his exceptional contributions and advice, and based on his real experiences over many years. I particularly admire the way Frank always strives for perfection in his Astral work.
I can tell everyone this, in my opinion anyway, you will never find Astral projection information as valuable as this in any books you can buy at Amazon or elswhere. Everything that you need to know to successfully Astral project is written right here in these forums for free, thanks to the many people that contribute, and are so willingly share their knowledge and experiences with everyone else.
Thanks again!
With best regards,
Adrian.
#18 · Apr 02, 2003, 15:01 · goingslow
You said you'd expand on how you shift away from physically looking at the back of your eyelids to where the 3D blackness thing is.
I did this a few times successfully when I realized i was straining my physical eyes trying to "see' in the darkness so I tried to shift to where i could see but wouldnt be using my physical eyes. Somehow knowing i didnt want to see with my eyes(literally) made me focus on the right spot.
Im curious what technique works for you. I tried robert bruce's suggestion of trying to recreate the movement you do when you're trying to keep your eyes open when sleepy, but didnt have much luck.
Are you actually focusing on your third eye when you do this is or is something else? Another thing i wanted to ask is do you feel pressure there when you do it that is a little painful?
#19 · Apr 26, 2003, 14:29 · Frank
I've tried all manner of different techniques and concluded that Astral projection is not about getting the right technique. What matters IMO is a person's sense of expectation; coupled with the realisation their expectations are being met.
Somehow, a person has to begin passively observing what goes on within themselves. How they best begin to do that does tend to differ from person to person. This is where the "techniques" come into play. After a while, however, an automatic process takes over and "techniques" become unnecessary.
Bruce Moen explains it perfectly where he says that his Focussed Attention technique is, in many ways, the equivalent to training-wheels on a bicycle.
Yours,
Frank
#20 · Apr 26, 2003, 15:23 · Mirador
#21 · Apr 27, 2003, 02:07 · Terry B
#22 · Apr 27, 2003, 16:37 · jason
this, of course, creates a big problem when it's time to describe what you "do" to have an astral projection.I have been practicing astral projection for the past 12 years or so (mostly undsuccessfully,however,once in a while,something REALLY interesting happens[:O]).I have found that the most important thing by far is the strong need for it to happen, if you just think it's kind of cool,and you'd like to try it,guess what...it probably won't happen!).many techniques describe methods that involve focusing awareness on the physical body,or the physical environment, and trying to make you feel like you are "moving".I find that these techniques invariably never work for me.I used to just ride the wave of energy that was released after I first attained frighteningly strong vibrations.after that,for years , I would just relax, and it would just happen.there was no "method".I would just be awake and in the process of relaxing,then I would feel the vibrations beginning, so I'd close my eyes,and fire myself into space
]focusing on a "technique" will only lead to frustration, as I have found over the past few years.I have been trying to find
the
technique.and guess what...I can't do it anymore!
[
]
if there is one technique to reccomend though, it would be robert monroe's technique in "journeys out of the body" (or something).it forces you to train your awareness away from the body and its environment.but after you attain that first success,forget it.it will just happen.unfortunately, now I must RELEARN it.[
!]
these complications make it VERY hard to describe to someone how they can learn astral projection, aspecially if they are: 1-just wondering about it,but don't actually need to do it,or,2-if they are closed- minded about, and just want to find out if they are right, and it is just all bullsh*t (to them)-of course it will NEVER happen for them!