#0 · Mar 25, 2003, 15:52 · nstkd8

I've been learning a lot about OBE over the last couple years, but i'm having a bit of difficulty reaching the mind awake/body asleep state. I attempt to relax my body and focus my mind on something (so it doesn't wander off into some daydream/dream)so that my body will fall asleep and I'll enter a fairly constant trance state, but it seems that my level of mental activity is still keeping me from entering a trance. The times when i get closest (wave-like vibrations, feelings of limbs floating upward, etc) seem to be when i've lost focus and started to daydream. Only then do i find myself in what i believe is (possibly) the beginning of a stage of energy body expansion. When i deliberately try to loosen my focus a bit, i end up slipping into a foggy dreamy sleep. I assume that i must stay loosely focused on something (my breathing/feelings of falling) until my body's physical senses shut down, but actually doing this is... a bit like assembling a puzzle when you don't know what the final picture is supposed to look like. Any thoughts on the subject are more than welcome. thanks.

one more thing - has anyone had success witht the hemisync gateway experience cd's?

#1 · Mar 25, 2003, 16:05 · Tom

There is at least one thread in the "Astral Consciousness" thread about the gateway Wave 1 CD and how best to use it. The hemispheric synchronization CDs are intended to guide the user into that mind awake / body asleep state without going too far and resulting in just ordinary sleep. I tried it a couple of times, but these things usually just irritate me. At least the Wave 1 did not annoy me.

Brainwave Mind Voyages Series 2 Astral Trance is not bad, either. I actually managed to listen to it a few times.

Have you tried the techniques for developing the hypnagogic state such as holding a handful of marbles over a bowl? Of course, any combination that makes noise when your hand relaxes will work. I have caught myself going into the hypnagogic stage by pouring coffee on myself. :)

#2 · Mar 25, 2003, 17:01 · nstkd8

Tom,
I've tried the "marbles in the hand" technique to maintain the hypnogogic state, but falling asleep seems to be a very quick process. It seems to be associated primarily with losing focus... letting the mind wander. I wonder if the physical process of falling asleep occurs when a person's focus is turned away from the physical body for a sufficient length of time. This may explain why i experience vibrations after a brief period of daydreaming/dreaming (is this what is meant by hypnogogic imagery by the way???) There also seems to be a sort of mental relaxation that preceeds sleep. I guess i just need to find the right combination of these factors in order to enter a stable trance state. (thanks for the reply[ :) ])

#3 · Mar 25, 2003, 17:12 · astralc

nstkd8

It took me about 15 years of working at relaxation to be able to switch off when I meditated. Now I can meditate easily most times, unless I am distressed, then I have to work on it and use various releasing techniques to come back down and let go. So maybe you just gotta keep doing it until it does for you.

Astralc

#4 · Mar 25, 2003, 17:22 · Kodemaster

Hello nstkd8,

I, too have the problem of constant mind chatter. What works for me is to use the ladder technique.

Close your eyes and imagine an endless ladder in front of you. On each "in" breath, focus on your imaginary hands grasping the ladder. On each "out" breath, take a step or two down.

Keep doing this until you feel yourself in a trance. I can usually hold it after that.

Eventually you won't need the technique at all and you will be able go into trance just by closing your eyes and relaxing.

Good luck,

#5 · Mar 25, 2003, 20:11 · nstkd8

lol... i hope it doesn't take 15 years... but if it does, so be it. thanks again for the replies.

Kodemaster... i usually do a combination of a ladder technique and a "falling backward through the clouds" technique. They bring success occasionally, but i guess i just need to learn to focus on the techniques to the COMPLETE exclusion of my physical senses???

Does it seem plausible to anyone else that OBE is primarily about mental focus (and where you direct it)? It seems that all techniques that induce trance (or sleep) focus one's attention AWAY from the body... and techniques for a conscious exit involve externalizing (with respect to the body) you sense of "self". I'm just wondering if my lack of focus (mind-wandering) is the main factor that is limiting me.

#6 · Mar 26, 2003, 12:17 · Adrian

Greetings nstkd8,

The "mind asleep, body awake" trance state is undoubtedly a cornerstone of success in Astral projection. Having achieved that state, you have the choice of "phasing" into the Astral, or inducing an OBE.

A reproducible method of achieving this trance state is required, but as has been mentioned, the state should become more and more natural, and invocable at will with practice.

One fundamental problem appears for people is in actually recognising the trance state,and also the depth of trance achieved. It would be interesting, and useful to many, if people here could describe their perception of the mind awake, body asleep trance in terms of how it is achieved and recognised.

Many people have trouble with the "rope" and "ladder" techniques because they find themselves bumping heads on the ceiling, or ending up with a coil of rope etc.. [ :) ] However, inducing a sinking feeling such as floating downwards, or going down in an elevator is equally a effective.

Above all, perseverance and practice is the best route to success.

With best regards,

Adrian.

#7 · Mar 26, 2003, 19:37 · nstkd8

Adrian suggested that "It would be interesting, and useful to many, if people here could describe their perception of the mind awake, body asleep trance in terms of how it is achieved and recognised." I agree... it would certainly be useful to me at least. I have assumed the mind awake/body asleep trance state to be one in which all physical senses have shut down. I generally reach a point at which my body starts to feel "expanded" and slightly fluid (i seem to have rippling vibrations passing through various parts of my body), but i don't feel like my body is "asleep" enough to allow me to trigger the projection reflex. I've heard the process of conscious exit OBE described as "narrowing one's consciousness to a single thread and slipping/sneaking your conscious mind through into the projectable double". I wonder if i have to let my mind go a little "foggy", taking on a distant dreamlike quality, in order to enter trance. Anyway... any opinions/recollections of what the mind awake/body asleep trance state feels like as well as advice about the subtler aspects of mental focus that i'll need to reach the necessary trance state will be greatly appreciated.

#8 · Mar 27, 2003, 15:43 · bigimpact

Might be useful for Tom to be a little more helpful. I can recommend the Monroe gateway CD's most of the first pack (6 Cd's) is geared towards this state, known to them as Focus 10. It's easy to get in to, after about 10 listens to the second exercise on the fiorst CD you should be able to enter the state without a CD, but just achieving this level of focus isn;t in itself going to get you out of body, its a very useful tool though. Don't use it at night before wsleep, as you'll have a bag of energy by the end.

Incidentally, for each exercise, do it 10 times, 1 every other night before moving on to the next - even if you have mastered the lesson, trust me on this one.

But Monroe institute is now more about altered states of consciousness than specifically OBE, remember OBE is only a very small slice of a very big pie. Good luck.

#9 · Mar 27, 2003, 16:48 · David Staveley

It may sound wierd, but I've found the mind chatter to be a help, at least in relaxation and possibly in changing states of conciousness. I lie down a attempt to clear my mind to get into a different state of mind, but the chatter kicks in. Sometimes I just fall asleep, but if I catch myself, I find that just lying still and daydreaming has put me in a deep state of physical relaxation and started energy flowing. If I really try and keep my mind clear, I find I am too aware of my body and this doesn't happen, the daydreaming takes my mind off it. Even my mental state changes more. I suppose this is all just a part of the natural progression towards sleep, but I wonder if this can be harnessed in some way? Perhaps by subconsciously programming yourself to snap to before you fall asleep.

I'm sure the clear mind is important, but a good dose of daydreaming is certainly not to be sniffed at! [ :) ]

#10 · Mar 30, 2003, 07:38 · Frank

quote:
Originally posted by nstkd8

I've been learning a lot about OBE over the last couple years, but i'm having a bit of difficulty reaching the mind awake/body asleep state. I attempt to relax my body and focus my mind on something (so it doesn't wander off into some daydream/dream)
The beginning stage of Phasing, at the point it kicks-off *is* very much like a daydream. Only you retain a sense of mental focus, rather than having your mental-focus dissipate and falling asleep as normal.

The way you stop the daydream "running away from you" and so retain your mental focus, is to passively observe the imagery that comes about within your mind. There comes a stage where doing this causes your focus of attention to turn inwards entirely. The point at which this happens is Focus 10.

In other words, you *should* allow yourself to mentally wander off and, all the while you do so, maintain a state where you are passively observing yourself doing so. From what you say, I think you are perhaps becoming more involved in an act of creative visualisation. Which tends to keep you grounded.

There's a tricky mental balancing-act you need to maintain between kickstarting the natural Phasing process from using a little abstract imagery, and avoiding engaging in an act of creative visualisation.

Followers of the Moen-school Focussed Attention methods, for example, are taught to contact people (in what they term the Afterlife) from first imagining they are speaking with that person in some typical setting they would have normally come across while they were alive, physically.

At the same time as they are imagining this rundown, they are also taught to be on the lookout for mental events which come about that were, "not on their script" so to speak. Then they simply branch off down these threads to see where they lead.

Likewise, with the Phasing approach. The mental imagery is used only to kickstart what is a natural Phasing process. Basically, it acts as a mental device which is designed to help shift your focus of awareness away from the backs of your physical eyes, and up into the expanse of your mind.
quote:
so that my body will fall asleep and I'll enter a fairly constant trance state, but it seems that my level of mental activity is still keeping me from entering a trance. The times when i get closest (wave-like vibrations, feelings of limbs floating upward, etc) seem to be when i've lost focus and started to daydream.
As I say, the beginning stage of Phasing *is* very much like entering a daydream. But you retain your sense of focus by passively observing the daydream as you enter into it. It's a difficult one to explain, but it's like you stand back from it just a touch, and keep the observational senses alert.

As the dream unfolds, you need to passively observe the action. What I mean by "passive" here is to observe... but simply remain neutral. Because the moment you begin reacting to the unfolding events, that's the point where you begin to rapidly lose it. The dream becomes you, and you become the dream; and the more you become the dream, the more the dream becomes you; so the more you become the dream.........
quote:
Only then do i find myself in what i believe is (possibly) the beginning of a stage of energy body expansion. When i deliberately try to loosen my focus a bit, i end up slipping into a foggy dreamy sleep. I assume that i must stay loosely focused on something (my breathing/feelings of falling) until my body's physical senses shut down, but actually doing this is... a bit like assembling a puzzle when you don't know what the final picture is supposed to look like. Any thoughts on the subject are more than welcome. thanks.
I never engage in any kind of formal "energy work" so I'm not sure what you mean by "energy-body expansion". But again, from what you say, the problem you are having is trying to find that centre road. Like I say it's quite a tricky mental balancing-act.

Yours,
Frank

#11 · Mar 30, 2003, 08:26 · Frank

quote:
Originally posted by nstkd8

I have assumed the mind awake/body asleep trance state to be one in which all physical senses have shut down. I generally reach a point at which my body starts to feel "expanded" and slightly fluid (i seem to have rippling vibrations passing through various parts of my body), but i don't feel like my body is "asleep" enough to allow me to trigger the projection reflex.
Generally, I feel people who try to achieve the Focus 10 state and beyond, are concentrating too much on trying to relax their physical body; rather than concentrating upon shifting their focus of attention inwards into the expanse of their mind. At which point they will naturally lose all sensation of having a physical-body.

If I may use the above quote as an example, the poster says, "but i don't feel like my body is "asleep" enough to allow me to trigger the projection reflex." My question is, "How do you know you do not feel your physical-body is asleep enough yet in order to allow the projection reflex to be triggered?"

Problem being in order for a person to know what state their physical body is (or is not) in, they have to focus on the body. And Focus 10 will only come about when 100% of a person's focus of attention shifts away from the body. So the two are in conflict.

Another point I wish to raise is, when correctly applied, the Phasing process is one smooth transition from Physical to Astral with no loss of consciousness . Also, at no time do any of your "senses" shut down.

All the senses you have with you while within the Physical, you take with you to the Astral. Although, at first, people may have difficulties fully engaging all their senses. For example, initially it is normal to experience vision and orientation problems. But these generally fade away once a person becomes more experienced.

In other words, yes, you lose all sensation of having a physical-body. But you can still see; touch; taste; smell & hear just as you can while Physical. In fact, once you get more adept at keeping a sense of control, your senses - while within the Astral - become many, many times more vibrant.

Yours,
Frank

#12 · Mar 30, 2003, 13:49 · nstkd8

Thanks for the tips everyone... [ :) ]

Nathan

#13 · Mar 30, 2003, 13:51 · Astpro

When trying to obtain a trance state and relaxing, the best visualisation technique will often come to mind. For me I visualise falling backwards down a long everlasting tunnel, which makes turns here and there. I feel as though I am going through it horizontally before I fall downwards down a different passage. For me accidental falling works best. I also like the bear rock/lift shaft technique, which is one of the first ones in Astral Dynamics if you want to read about it in more detail.

On achieving the body asleep/mind- awake state, the best time is when you wake up in the middle of the night. As stated in Astral Dynamics, many people set their alarms to wake them up in the middle of the night to project. This could be an option, mainly if your reason for entering trance is to project.

You could use calming music, or long play tapes of noise such as the sea to keep you awake, but Robert Bruce doesn't advise it, and he knows better than most.

#14 · Mar 31, 2003, 02:52 · weagle

I can suggest two other things you can do.  You can try the course at www.mysticweb.org it's totally free they will answer your questions as well, what it boils down to is awareness.  If you are aware in the physical then you will become aware in the astral/lucid dream state its simple as that.  So far the best technique to try just to get a taste of the astral/lucid/dreambody mode is the mild technique go to sleep 5-6hours wakeup wash your face stay awake for an hour then go back to sleep chances are you will wakeup while asleep (50% chance).  Now if you want to decrease the anomalies be more to the realtime zone you have to practice the 2nd technique which is to be aware of what you are doing all day and not think too much/daydream and concentrate on one thing at one time for example washing dishes you concentrate on it how it looks, feels,smells,hears also how you are feeling inwards at the sametime not let yourself daydream. (self-observation)  Now the 3rd technique is look at a candle/concentrate on it and then close your eyes and visualize the image in your minds eye.  An awesome book that describes many techniques is Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming by Stephen Laberge have to admit it's very THOROUGHLY written from a ph.d in lucid dreaming/psychology at stanford university who is currently researching this stuff, there is stuff in there I have yet to hear anyone talk about yet he describes why and how they work, worth the money in buying it.

#15 · Apr 01, 2003, 21:51 · Nick

Hi nstkd6,
The method I use to get to what I believe is the mind awake/body asleep state involves first relaxation, then the trance. For that I use what I learned at the Zen Center of Los Angeles back in the 90's but it's fairly simple: first start by counting the breaths up to ten, then begin back at one, and so on. In so doing you are focusing on the breathing and emptying your mind of random mind chatter. Eventually, the counting isn't necessary and then you can just focus on the breathing. From there, you will not even notice you are breathing. It works for me so I thought I'd pass it along.
A good introductory explanation is in a little book called: Taking the Path of Zen by Robert Aitken.
Take care,