Astral Projection Truth | The true costs of war

#0 · Mar 18, 2003, 06:07 · Adrian

Greetings everyone,

Yale professor William Nordhaus has calculated the cost of an invasion and reconstitution of Iraq to be as much as $1.92 Trillion!

What sort of obsenity is this to conduct a totally unjustified invasion, which most of the world is against including the colleagues and political parties of the leader and of course the United (using the word advisedly) Nations, and when there is so much genuine misery in the world due to disease and famine?

We have discussed this at length in the other topic, but I just wanted to highlight the extremeness of the actions of Bush and his cohorts, and who are unquestionably under the control of the forces of darkness if they did but know it.

This decade is probably one of the most crucial ever to mankind as the physical planet, and everything on it undergo a dimensional and etheric "shift", and relatively few are in a position to shift with it. The dark forces - which are extremely real and very powerful - know this, and which is why we are increasingly seeing situations like 9/11, Afghanistan and now Iraq, and later, unless attitudes shift - North Korea and various other countries that most definitely have weapons of mass destruction and are prepared to use them.

Aside from overt war, the fallout of terror that could well result from lunacy is beyond the comprehension of Bush (as most things are).

This war is as good as a certainty now - please therefore send your positive energies and Love to all of those involved, and in particular to all of those needy people who will see these trillions of dollars spent on the instruments of mass destruction, instead of countless tons of food and other tangible assistance.

And all this in the name of glory, power and oil.

And Bush is a "born again christian".

Please let me remind you of the Twin Hearts Meditation:

http://www.lifepositive.com/Body/energy-healing/pranic-healing/healing-meditation.asp

http://www.lifepositive.com/Body/energy-healing/pranic-healing/twin-heart-meditation.asp

With best regards,

Adrian.

#1 · Mar 18, 2003, 15:53 · Frank

Adrian: The yanks don't care how much it costs to re-build Iraq, "pipeline pays all" as they say in Washington.

Consider that there are around 300,000 US & UK soldiers ready to pounce on Iraq right now... which is about the same number of homeless children living on the streets in Nairobi, Africa (I use the term "living" loosely).

Many of these children are homeless because one or both of their parents died of AIDS and a large percentage of the children are suffering the same fate. But no-one in America gives a stuff about that... because Africa is not potentially the second largest oil-producing nation in the world.

All "they" want is to gain a high-degree of control over Iraqi fields in order to threaten the "upstart" OPEC Cartel. Which is what they have been wanting to do since the seventies .

Yours,
Frank

#2 · Mar 18, 2003, 16:46 · Chance

Ah Frank, there you go again! Where would we all be without your anti-American sentiments? You use the term yank which in and of itself is a derogatory word. You generalize Americans as being for this war. As demonstrations all across this great land has proved, there are more Americans who oppose this war than support it. Please refrain from such comments. I find them insulting to myself, my fellow clear-minded citizens and what America truly stands for. Freedom from oppression. Freedom to pursue one's happiness. And I am sure there is not one open-minded American that wants to see a single drop of blood shed! Oh, and lest I forget, it does seem to me that Mr. Blair is fighting tooth and nail for this aggression. So, instead of demonizing our country, how about taking aim at your own Prime Minister...Thank you in advance!!

#3 · Mar 18, 2003, 17:40 · goingslow

Good point. But some can only lump all americans together.
They're incapable of realizing americans differ strongly in opinions and what we think is wrong or right.

But people like that know america.. from reading and watching tv. *L*

#4 · Mar 18, 2003, 18:47 · Anonymous

The citizens of Iraq and similarly hostile countries are brainwashed by their media. It doesn't surprise me that our own country's media would try to do the same. Fore example, get this- in the NY Times newspaper (keep in mind how credible a news source they are), there was an article about a talking fish which was speaking in Hebrew about the Appocolypse and uttering warnings and commands. The newspaper interviewed the men who supposedly heard the fish, but could not interview the fish (Because it was killed and eaten for dinner). Now, one of three things is happening here- either this was printed in mockery of how gullable people are, the fish was right, or the fish was crazy. Or maybe someone was standing behind the fish stand and trying to impersonate the fish and there were some drugs involved. I'm not saying it couldn't happen- God is all-powerful- but frankly, I don't know who or what to believe anymore. We're responsible for ourselves and I don't like the fact that the governments of the world try to brainwash their citizens into hating the citizens of other countries. Has anyone here ever read George Orwell's 1984? That's what it's coming to- The invasion of privacy, the brainwashing, the conspiracies- and we allow it to happen because we're so afraid to break out of our cookie-cutter molds that society has set up for us.

#5 · Mar 18, 2003, 18:51 · Anonymous

I might add that my example of media brainwashing probably wasn't a very good one, but what I was trying to communicate is that just because a news source may be credible, the information they were given may not always be correct. Who does the media get thier information from? On war, they get it from government officials from both sides, and what goes on is that they point their fingers at each other and say "he's lying" or "he's wrong" or whatever. This fish story is just a rhumor as far as I can tell. I mean, only two people heard it talk? And why would anyone want to eat a talking fish, if it really did exist? In my opinion that's a really ignorant thing to do. The world's only talking fish and someone eats it for dinner. *shakes head* I think I'll go get some food and try to think myself out of existence.

#6 · Mar 19, 2003, 05:25 · Frank

quote:
Originally posted by Chance

Ah Frank, there you go again!

Yep, there I go expressing those pesky opposing opinions.

Is Yank a derogatory word? Slang, yes, in the same way as Yanks describe the British as Brits. Well, that has always been my understanding. In any event, surely it's a bit rich for a person to take such offence over a harmless little word; coming from a huge nation who is about to blow some tiny, near-defenceless country to bits, and kill god-knows however many innocent people in the process.

Er, me, anti-American? I rather suspect you are flattering yourself there matey. I'm not anti-American, I'm anti-WAR. And it doesn't take all that much brainpower to look back through recent history and realise that this seemingly never-ending fighting over oil continually leads to circumstances that make this world an ever worse place - not better.

I hear all you say about what you claim America stands for. However, it is an unfortunate fact that an ever-growing number of people in the world are developing a quite different picture. They are arguing, inter-alia, a large slice of the benefits culminating from your collective, "pursuit of happiness" are derived largely at their expense. And again, it doesn't take all that much brainpower to realise there is no magic-formula which led to America becoming the wealthiest nation on planet Earth. Yesterday, I filled my fuel-tank from near empty. It cost me the equivalent of about 75 USD. How much does it cost to fill your tank?

Not that any such logical reasoning would ever make a difference. Learned observers have long-since known that once in the grip of self-righteous passion, America swaps from democracy to near totalitarian state, under which critcism is both futile and unwise. If the events of the past week are anything to go by, it would appear this latest metamorphosis is complete.

Yours,
Frank

#7 · Mar 19, 2003, 05:49 · Chance

Frank,

I find it amusing that you use derogatory words to describe Americans and then turn around and say your not anti-American. Flatter myself...that's a good one! A bit of a paradox of a man eh? That's cool. We cherish our freedom to speak our minds.

I find it even more amusing that you refuse to address Mr. Blairs part in all of this and from the previous post the fact that Great Britain has committed some very heinous crimes in their history. I mean they killed Americans a couple hundred years ago for wanting to be free of their tyranny. They wanted control and taxation of the bounty in this country and were willing to come over and kill to get it. So again...Check into that high horse of yours, it could buck you with a realization.

I know how expensive Petrol is in your country...I bought my fair share when I travelled to and from base and around the beautiful countryside. You want to be mad cause you pay more...Envy is one of the deadliest sins you know...Try blaming your own oil companies and the taxes imposed for your Petrol woes.

As for the pursuit of happiness...Give me a break...The vast majority of Americans pursue their happiness without causing misery for the rest of the world. Again, more demonizing Americans and additional proof of your angst towards Americans in general. Give us a break.

As Ender has pointed out all this polarizing with this us and them bull is getting us nowhere. If we don't see ourselves as Souls in search of peace and love and doing our best to embody that, we are all screwed...Britains, Americans, Iraqi's and the rest of us.

Peace to you and yours!

#8 · Mar 19, 2003, 07:40 · Frank

You can have a laugh at my expense, I don't mind that. It's nice being able to make people chuckle. Again, I am in no way anti-American: just anti-WAR. As regards my not talking about Tony Blair, well, when does anyone leave the cinema raving about the B-movie?

Of course, looking back through history anyone can see that loads of countries have committed all manner of atrocities throughout the ages. What I would simply suggest is that we all stop doing it. But, yet again, we are on the brink of a war fought in the name of peace. (War against terror, indeed!)

I suppose once it is all over then, yet again, we will see a US-installed puppet president; who will, yet again, be armed to the teeth by the US; which will, yet again, secure the oil flow; and no-doubt, after a decade or two we will, yet again, find ourselves in pretty much the same situation.

Wouldn't it be ironic if, by that time, there was a Bush-3.

Ultimately, I cannot fathom what it is the US is attempting to achieve. I mean, apart from annexing the world's second largest oil reserves. More death and destruction will simply lead to ever more death and destruction.

Yours,
Frank

#9 · Mar 19, 2003, 13:49 · Chance

The following site is a great example of the freedom to find the truth and express it we enjoy in a country that still, although barely, clutches to a document that ensures this right. You try expressing opinions like this in other countries, Iraq for example, and you'll find you and your family imprisoned, tortured and dead. Yet, as Americans it is our job to ensure the leaders of our country are held to task for their crimes. And believe you me, if the media is ever turned on it's head, like it should be, we will see great shifts in US political climates. Unfortunately mainstream press is owned and operated by greedy men who wish to fill their pockets. Not on the truth, but the propaganda they are payed to fill our minds with.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/

As for my chuckles at your expense, I truly hope no one is charging you to write this stuff. LOL...That one is at my expense...hehe...You are the one who continues to write contradictory comments. I just commented on the amusing quality of it. If that insinuates that I am doing it at your expense then so be it. And for your clarification, Brits isn't a derogatory term...When I was in the service the morons that tried to use derogatory language in connection with Britains used limey...They thought that one was quite funny. I found all that jazz to be rather stupid. My girlfriend at the time of my service was British. I had a rather large amount of friends off-base, all of which I would have gladly stepped in front of a bullet protecting. Perhaps this is part and parcel of why your continuing barrage of anti-American sentiment confounds me. I mean, you are aware that thousands of American soldiers are on hand to help defend YOUR country, right? And those same soldiers and their families help ensure a wonderful economy for the towns they are stationed at as well as surrounding communities!

I gladly welcome your anti-war sentiment. It is just what the doc ordered. Whether you mean to move that sentiment on to Americans or not, it just seems to come out that way.

Just wondering? Have you heard of any of the deplorable acts Sadaam has committed against his own people? Is all that propaganda? During the gulf war the Iraqi soldiers were all but too excited to surrender, at least they could get something to eat. That's right, Sadaam doesn't feed his troops very well. He doesn't do much of anything for his people very well. Does that give us the right to go in and take him out? Probably not.

To continue to barrage us repeatedly with the same...OIL WAR...OIL WAR...arguments is getting a bit old...There is much more involved here than that. Subtle influences that ride bellow the surface of so called government leaders. People who live in the shadows and control the events in the world through their secret orders. And all to further their own agenda's. Ones that if you or I were fully aware of would blow our freakin' minds...In other words stop saying things like what US is trying to achieve. It goes well beyond that and if you meditate on it a moment you will realize it as well.

Wow, that sounded almost crazy enough to be true...Dang that William Cooper...Darn that Bill Kaysing...*Shakes fist at Oliver Stone*

#10 · Mar 19, 2003, 13:55 · MJ-12

#11 · Mar 19, 2003, 14:44 · Frank

quote:
Originally posted by Chance

The following site is a great example of the freedom to find the truth and express it we enjoy in a country that still, although barely, clutches to a document that ensures this right. You try expressing opinions like this in other countries, Iraq for example,

Tell me, why is it now, "Iraq for example". Why not the myriad of other countries on this planet that regularly torture ordinary citizens for daring to express their heartfelt opinions?

Ah, entrance the 50-odd year, "oil equation". Not surprising such talk is getting more than a bit old. And there's more than me who are heartily sick of it. God knows how many people have suffered as a result of it, and lord knows how many have yet to suffer.

So, yet again, we have the spectacle of the USA protecting its oil interests. Yet again, we have the spectacle of the USA correcting its puppet-president cock-ups. Yet again, innocent people are set to die a horrid death as a result. Yet again, all the right-thinking people on this planet become ever more tired of having to endure such lameness.

When you boil it to the bone, if Iraq's primary export potential were carrots... none of you in the USA would give a stuff.

Yours,
Frank

PS

And yet again, I am not anti-USA... I am anti-WAR.

#12 · Mar 19, 2003, 15:12 · Adrian

Greetings everyone!

quote:
Originally posted by Frank
quote:
Originally posted by Chance

The following site is a great example of the freedom to find the truth and express it we enjoy in a country that still, although barely, clutches to a document that ensures this right. You try expressing opinions like this in other countries, Iraq for example,

Tell me, why is it now, "Iraq for example". Why not the myriad of other countries on this planet that regularly torture ordinary citizens for daring to express their heartfelt opinions?

Ah, entrance the 50-odd year, "oil equation". Not surprising such talk is getting more than a bit old. And there's more than me who are heartily sick of it. God knows how many people have suffered as a result of it, and lord knows how many have yet to suffer.

So, yet again, we have the spectacle of the USA protecting its oil interests. Yet again, we have the spectacle of the USA correcting its puppet-president cock-ups. Yet again, innocent people are set to die a horrid death as a result. Yet again, all the right-thinking people on this planet become ever more tired of having to endure such lameness.

When you boil it to the bone, if Iraq's primary export potential were carrots... none of you in the USA would give a stuff.

Yours,
Frank

PS

And yet again, I am not anti-USA... I am anti-WAR.

I really must echo Frank's sentiments on the eve of this pending abhorrent lunacy that is about to be unleashed on the world - not just Iraq. By this time tomorrow, there will alot of unecessary additional suffering, as if there isn't enough in the world already.

Make no mistake this is overtly about oil , but behind the scenes, and driving this situation, like 9/11, are dark forces that are very powerful and very deadly. Bush has no idea what he is about to unleash on his country and the world.

All this talk about "weapons of mass destruction" is a joke! Pakistan has nuclear weapons for example, and harbours terrorists, including possible Bin-Laden himself - you don't see Bush and Blair invading Pakistan or India for that matter do you? North Korea is not only dangerous, and has nuclear weapons, but it is publicly testing them before the world! When is Bush going to send his Yellow Sea fleet to "disarm" that country? And for that matter - the USA and Britain has weapons of mass destruction, who is going to disarm them?

This is not just about dictators and attrocities either. The neighbours of the USA - the South American countries, until recently were almost all led by dictators and militrary "juntas" etc., and who committed terrible attrocities. There are many other countries in the world where attrocities are being perpetrated every day - e.g. the African countries - look what happened to the people of Rwanda - wholesale slaughter of men, women and children. The hypocrisy on the part of Bush (and Blair) is absolutely overwhelming! They talk about attrocities, and yet they are about spend over a trillion dollars on bombs, missiles and all of the other paraphernalia of warfare, and on rebuilding after they have blown everything to pieces, while the starvation, terror, misery and attrocities continue unabated elsewhere in the world.

The fact is - Bush knows very well that the "grateful" Iraqi people will owe a debt of gratitude, and of course Bush will be delighted to help them "manage" their huge oil reserves, providing of course it all arrives in the USA and the countries of it's allies. People in the USA think $1.70 for a gallon of gas is expensive - we pay $5!

The most worrying thing however behind all of this are the dark forces at work in probably the most critical time in our history, this next decade. The battle will be waged and the Light must prevail.

I would ask everyone reading this to send Love, energy, prayers, and whatever else you can to the true victims of this USA led action, as well as for peace in the world generally, and for the forces of light.

This message is not anti USA, it just so happens that this war is being led by the USA, and by Bush and an American general who is commanding all the military. Blair is equally to blame, particularly as he has turned his back on his own party and his own people.

We are entering a sad and potentially deadly era, where the USA and its allies "know not what they do" - please do whatever you can to make a difference for the Light.

With best regards,

Adrian.

#13 · Mar 19, 2003, 15:41 · Epsilon

I think we should all start supporting the troops that have been sent over instead of bickering back and forth about something we have no control over. The troops need to know that the countries they are from support them while they lay their lives on the line. No one WANTS war, but there comes a point where you must start "supporting" it whether you like it or not. I have friends in the Armed Guard that have been sent over, and I know that they just want to be supported by their country and get this over with. In fact, I feel like a horrible friend sitting back here in the states watching it unfold on TV as their putting their lives in danger. Who knows, I might never see them again... (God forbid)

Whether you're anti-war, anti-US, anti-protests, anti-anything, please sit back for a moment and remember that fellow countrymen and possibly friends or family are over in the Middle East, and that they need your support.

I don't support the war, I support the troops.

Learn, Love & Enjoy,
Ethan

#14 · Mar 19, 2003, 16:29 · goingslow

Many of the protestors and anti war people do put down the troops instead of Bush and its hard to find a middle ground there sometimes. We can all sit back and say its wrong and argue but those are just words. These people are possibly going to lose their lives we do owe them some respect. Sitting at home comfortable its easy to see things in black and white. But the government makes the decisions and sends them there and believe it or not it hurts them when it seems so many Americans dislike them more than they dislike those that hate our countries. Some protestors carry signs putting down our military and have pictures of iraqi people. Its fine to have empathy but be thoughtful of who you're hurting.

Sorry to say but its the truth most people in Iraq would celebrate america and all of her people being blown to pieces. The solders out there are the ones that would defend you from that.

This isnt for the anti american.. "no im not anti american i just lump you all together and demonize you together." ungrateful sideline watchers. But more for americans who think its so cool to completely put down our military. Bush doesn't represent most of the american people.. if you knew how many people actually hated him and dont even consider him the rightful president maybe you'd get a better idea what the american people believe. But im sure you'll continue to lump everyone together. I dont care much what anyone outside this country says because face it a lot of you have ulterior motives and you dont like the US anyway. So i dont really get bothered by what bitter people have to say about it.

#15 · Mar 19, 2003, 19:28 · Anonymous

You're absolutely right, Goingslow. There was some riot (I forget where) that protestors took a 9/11 memorial and trashed it. I think people definitely need to be a lot more careful about what they are saying and doing. 9/11 has nothing to do with this war. A lot of people don't even think about what they say before it comes out of their mouths. Sometimes they don't even think about what they're doing. I think that's ridiculous. I am so fed up with people who follow others around like a flock of sheep. I'm not supporting Bush in this, but I definitely support our troops. I have a few friends in the armed forces and they don't want this war any more than we do. They should not needlessly suffer for our government's greedy ulterior motives. A REAL patriot is someone who believes in the ideals on which this country was founded, ideals that it seems are no longer important to our government- The right to privacy and the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Someone who is anti-government is not necessarily anti-American. They may actually be more of a patriot than the leaders we have today. I myself am an anarchist (sort of), but I don't believe in chaos. I believe in self-government- everyone is responsible for themselves and their actions. Our society is so full of excuses for everything. Every time I turn around someone makes an excuse rather than accept responsibilitly for their actions. Bush is making excuses to go to war, for instance. If our leaders make excuses, how can they expect to produce fine citizens? It's like my kung fu teachers says- Sloppy teachers make sloppy students. We may acquire our skills from others, but it is up to us to develop them and determine when and how to use them.

Anyway, enough of my ranting. There is a lot of ignorance on both sides of the issue of this war, and it's hard not to be ignorant when we don't know who to trust.

#16 · Mar 19, 2003, 20:53 · ralphm

The pope says this is not a moral war, basicaly I think the human race is in for a lot of turmoil on the physical plane, maybe just to show that the physical is not so important.

#17 · Mar 19, 2003, 21:15 · Anonymous

This war will have unexpected effects. I think that we are entering a new age. Hopefully this will be the last war we have for awhile. There's still issues with North Korea and Pakistan to take care of though.

We are at war. We have dropped leaflets to persuade the Iraqi soldiers to surrender. 17 of them have already gone to Kuwait. Hopefully most of the Iraqi army will defect.

#18 · Mar 20, 2003, 02:58 · Adrian

Greetings everyone,

Sadly the destruction and terror has commenced.

quote:
Originally posted by Epsilon

I think we should all start supporting the troops that have been sent over instead of bickering back and forth about something we have no control over. The troops need to know that the countries they are from support them while they lay their lives on the line.

Of course everyone wishes the troops safety, but let us not forget that they are there of their own freewill . Not one member of the military is there against their will - they are there because they want to fight, and use the weapons of war against fellow human beings - their brothers and sisters - have no illusions about that. If they did not enjoy fighting, war, destruction and killing, they would not have exercised their own freewill to do it. What do you think these military personell believe cruise missiles are for - it sure isn't to put on an expensive firework display. Likewise for the tanks they drive, the aircraft they fly and the assault weapons they carry to kill people with - they are not being force to do this - they are doing it because they chose to do so.

The innocent people of Iraq, the everyday men, women and children who are on the receiving end of this terror and destruction have no choice - they are not using their own freewill to choose to be bombed into oblivion, and in many cases have this life brutally terminated.

Quote : "In his four-minute announcement from the Oval Office, Bush said the military campaign, supported by 35 nations, would make efforts to spare Iraqi civilians. But he made it clear the U.S. military planned to use its full might in the war."

Read this as Bush saying that if they have to kill innocent people they will do.

This is a sad day for mankind and the planet, and which will have serious consequences beyond the comprehension of those responsible.

With best regards,

Adrian.

#19 · Mar 20, 2003, 03:39 · Nerezza

they are there because they want to fight, and use the weapons of war against fellow human beings - their brothers and sisters - have no illusions about that. If they did not enjoy fighting, war, destruction and killing, they would not have exercised their own freewill to do it.

Wow.

"Just miles from your doorstep, hundreds of men are given weapons and trained to kill. The government calls it the Army, but a more alarmist name would be...The Killbot Factory!"

---Kent Brockman on "The Simpsons"

My family is full of killbots.

#20 · Mar 20, 2003, 06:52 · Chance

quote:
Originally posted by Adrian

Of course everyone wishes the troops safety, but let us not forget that they are there of their own freewill . Not one member of the military is there against their will - they are there because they want to fight, and use the weapons of war against fellow human beings - their brothers and sisters - have no illusions about that. If they did not enjoy fighting, war, destruction and killing, they would not have exercised their own freewill to do it. What do you think these military personell believe cruise missiles are for - it sure isn't to put on an expensive firework display. Likewise for the tanks they drive, the aircraft they fly and the assault weapons they carry to kill people with - they are not being force to do this - they are doing it because they chose to do so.

Let me clarify a bit here for you Adrian. I find myself agreeing with most all of your assertations. I would however disagree with you here. While it is true that for many years now military enlistment has been voluntary, the enlistees join for other reasons than wanting to kill other people. For many they see it as a chance to help protect our country and what our country stands for. Freedom!
For others it's a chance to see the world. For some it's a chance to advance their education on the govt. dime. Whatever their reasons, I never once heard a fellow enlisted man say, "I joined up cause I want to kill people". Not once...

As far as freewill goes...Yes they signed up...But that is where freewill and freedom part company with them. They are under orders. Don't follow your orders, how does prison sound. Want to protest the war, go straight to prison. Yep, that's right, along with your freewill goes those freedoms your risking your butt to defend. Uncle Sam owns you...And until you are released from inactive reserves those freedoms can be taken away yet again. And of course there are certain things you'll never be able to speak about for the rest of your life without the threat of imprisonment or death.

So, to sum up, yes the troops are being forced to partake in this war. They are forced by the orders they are given from their higher command. And those commands come from those who won't have to get a single speck of blood on their own hands. Literally, not metphorically. So cut the troops a bit of slack, please. I'm sure they would all rather be home hugging their loved ones rather than enduring a harsh desert climate while trying to kill or be killed.

War sucks we all agree. Protest it. Tell Bush to knock it off. Tell Blair to give it a rest. But don't demonize the men and women of the US military. I have known many who would give the shirt off their own backs to help a stranger, regardless of where they hail from.

Cheers!

#21 · Mar 20, 2003, 07:30 · Anonymous

Agreed, Chance. In a situation like the one our troops are in, it's about survival, but also it's about standing up for what we believe in. Granted there are some sickos in the military, and there always will be, most are just regular people who you have described well. What if we had no army? I could think of a few countries who would invade us. I suppose having a bad government is better than having no government at all, but we could use improvement on this situation. Bush isn't really our president, seeing how he was never truly elected. The whole voting fiasco with Florida back in 2000 is a travesty. The only people who don't have a voice are those who allow their voices to be taken from them. The government cannot silence us from speaking out against war. Yes, I would like to see Saddam removed from power and his sons prevented from gaining it. War is ugly, and there may be other ways. If they have to kill Saddam, why not hire some skilled ninjas (seriously). The duty of the ninja is to infiltrate and destroy. They can infiltrate a thousand men undetected and get their job done with no trace of them ever being there. This method would save the lives of thousands of people. Saddam is a psychotic, criminally insane individual who MUST be removed from power. He is a monster. There are many problems with religion in that part of the world, which I think is mostly due to the brainwashing done by the terrible governments of certain nations, such as Iraq. They use the religion to mainipulate the people. It seems they cannot live together in peace and harmony. Jews and Arabs of Israel and Palestine are constantly fighting, committing numerous attrocities, harming and killing innocent civilians. The Palestinian suicide bombers are crazed radicals with extreme bloodlust. It seems that the Israeli army is also to blame for provoking them, as they have shot at innocent people, not to mention we've armed them with weapons far superior to what Palestine has. That's another spot that needs our attention, after North Korea and Pakistan, but not the kind of attention we're giving Iraq.

#22 · Mar 20, 2003, 07:32 · Rob

"For others it's a chance to see the world. For some it's a chance to advance their education on the govt. dime. Whatever their reasons, I never once heard a fellow enlisted man say, "I joined up cause I want to kill people". Not once..."

But still, they joined the services by their own free will - whatever the reasons they saw to join, they saw this as more important than being a part of the big killbot machine (lol!). Essentially they chose to be part of an instrument of death and terror because they wanted to "see the world" or etc. I do understand, they don't see it in these terms, they don't fully understand what they are being asked to do. But when you look at it in this light its a bit of a lame excuse. The possibility of being killed or killing someone else, well is it really worth that just to get a bit of free education?
I would never, ever join the army. Although my bro is joining as a medic, and my dad was a major in the TA and big army buff. They practically re-program your brain to accept orders, and then free-will plummets. But still, if they were about to be called up to fight, couldn't they just say "I can't do this, I am a conscientious objector" or something? They can't force you to fight surely...

I do hope that as few of them as possible are killed or injured, but I don't really have much sympathy for the ones who are rearing to "go bag us some rag-heads", more their relatives who will have to live with the loss. A much bigger piece of my heart goes out the innocent Iraqis.

Anyway this whole issue is very cunning, I am forever impressed by the skills of them spin-doctors!! Notice how, whenever tricky issues come up which a voice in authority wants to quash, the emphasis is shifted entirely off the issue and on to some fluffy emotional thing. Example - reading an article last night on the war starting, and the only thing it mentions Tony Blair saying is the whole "wishing the troops well" bit. Completely side-stepping the fact that he has just sent thousands of our troops, paid for by the taxpayers, to an almost defenceless country thousands of miles away, some of whom won't come back, most of whom will cause massive pain and bloodshed, and all put there against the expressed wishes of the British general public (and I used to call this a democracy...). Basically, they are sly SOB's.
Best not to get caught up in the emotional side-shows and keep our eyes on the real issue.

Now I am here there is one other thing that I really want to say - we all knew this war was coming, some only seeing this as a certainty in the last few days, others seeing it hurtling unstoppably towards us months ago. We were almost powerless to stop it, from the beginning. But!! Look how much we have delayed it!! People (skilled psychics included) have in 100% of the cases I have seen predicted the war would have started much earlier than it actually has done (I was expecting it one month ago). And look what has happened - they've been stuttering, tripping up, putting themselves in some really laughable situations, the controversy that has brewed up, the protests....its really encouraging, I think people are actually beginning to wake up.

peace
Rob

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Ghandi

#23 · Mar 20, 2003, 07:47 · Adrian

Greetings Chance,

Thank you very much indeed for your perspective.

I have to respectfully disagree. The military isn't a job creation, or job experience scheme, it exists to kill and destroy at the whim of its leaders - in this case Bush.

No person is compelled to join the miltary, but when they choose to do so, they do so in full knowledge that they will be compelled to utilise the weapons of warfare provided to them to kill their fellow brother or sister, and to create destruction and chaos. That is what the miltary exists for, and anyone joining the miltary for any other purpose, e.g. as a nice, exciting job but not thinking there will actually be a war or other hostilities, is being extremely naive. If they prefer to be at home with their loved ones, and who can blame them for that, they should not have enlisted in the miltary in the first place, in which case, at home they would surely be.

From a Spiritual point of view, killing of any sort is a crime against Divine Providence (God), and is punishable by Universal laws of Karma - either in this lifetime or a future one - but the price will have to be paid. That is one reason why it is fundamentally important for humanity to understand and live by these truths. Of course motive has a big influence on the Karmic debt to be equilibrated. Those that are in charge and instigate warfare, as well as all those that actually enjoy killing and destruction, will pay a heavy price. Those that enlisted as a career, not thinking they would be called into action, and who follow there orders dutifully but reluctantly will pay a lesser price. It doesn't alter the fact that they chose to be in that situation of their own freewill.

You talk about cutting the professional military some slack, how much slack are you going to cut the 99% of innocent, already oppressed Iraq families, as the cruise missiles, super bombs, and all of the other high-tech armaments explode on and around them, killing family members, and destroying homes and livelyhoods? Bush just scoffs at it saying they are "necessary casualties of war"! In reality, they are casualties of the economic greed of the USA and some of its allies, who want direct control of the oil reserves in Iraq.

Oil is why people will be getting killed and injured, having their homes and businesses vaporised, and all of the other suffering that will last for years to come, and not just in Iraq. The excuse is "weapons of mass destruction" and "war against terrorism". There is no evidence for any of those things in Iraq, but I would think that if (and when) no genuine ones are found, then it will be ensured that some of weapons will indeed suddenly, retrospectively turn up in Iraq for the benefit of the worlds press, and Bush's "I told you so".

With best regards,

Adrian.

#24 · Mar 20, 2003, 07:50 · Epsilon

quote:
Of course everyone wishes the troops safety, but let us not forget that they are there of their own freewill. Not one member of the military is there against their will - they are there because they want to fight, and use the weapons of war against fellow human beings - their brothers and sisters - have no illusions about that. If they did not enjoy fighting, war, destruction and killing, they would not have exercised their own freewill to do it. What do you think these military personell believe cruise missiles are for - it sure isn't to put on an expensive firework display. Likewise for the tanks they drive, the aircraft they fly and the assault weapons they carry to kill people with - they are not being force to do this - they are doing it because they chose to do so.

True, my friends did choose to enroll in the Guard, but not because they enjoy killing... [:O] I'm actually shocked that point was made. Just because someone enrolls in the military does not mean they want to go around killing people...! I don't know anyone that wants to do that. They enrolled to protect their home, their state, their country. Not to mention they also go to a good university and needed help paying their tuition. If we lived in like Sweden or someplace where tuitions are payed for by the government, I don't know if my buddies would have enrolled. I might have to ask them that when they get back. But the fact of the matter is that they are over there right now, following orders. They don't get to pick which assignments or missions they're gonna go on. It's not up to them.
They're not blind, deaf, or dumb either. They know what's going on in their country and around the world. They know about the protests around the world protesting against why they're there. I think it's time we concentrate on supporting them and getting them home asap.

God bless the troops. (All of them, not just the Americans, but the British and the Australians and the many other troops from all around the world)

Ethan

EDIT: 3 or 4 messages were posted while I was typing my last message. Obviously this thread is stirring up some emotions. I'm going to stay out of further arguements as I don't see any good coming out of this and don't see it going anywhere but downhill. I don't want war, war is horrible. Not to sound like a "post-60's hippie", but love and peace is what we should all strive for, but I don't see it making a sudden appearance today. Today we should focus on bringing the troops home and supporting them until then.
Whatever. I need to go cheer up now. [}:)] (War is depressing)

learn, love & enjoy
Ethan

#25 · Mar 20, 2003, 08:14 · Adrian

Geetings Epsilon,

I actually said:

quote:
No person is compelled to join the miltary, but when they choose to do so, they do so in full knowledge that they will be compelled to utilise the weapons of warfare provided to them to kill their fellow brother or sister, and to create destruction and chaos

What I am saying in essence is that for whatever reason they joined, they must know that they could be called upon to kill, maim and destroy. If people are not prepared to do that, and accept the consequences of their own actions, then they should not have enlisted.

Thay had a choice - the Iraqi people have absolutely no choice - do you really believe that even minutely enters Bush's head?

With best regards,

Adrian.

#26 · Mar 20, 2003, 09:45 · goingslow

And if they didnt join up they'd be drafting people like you if you're even american.

Adrian you keep putting your propaganda up in every thread why not leave it to other topics now? Ive seen you do at least three of them in order to put your views on everyone. You dont care who you insult you dont care that many people here have family or friends who might die.

You think if no one enlisted then bush wouldnt have his war? No they'd get people there so instead of feeling so sorry for the people in iraq while saying basically the soldiers did it to themselves you should be thankful.

Stop complaining and stop putting propaganda everywhere already its getting old. Most dont come here to read your anti war sentiments but definitely not your anti military sentiments. Why not go to iraq and act as a shield.? Im sure all those iraqis you love so much will love you right back.

Im so sick of some of the self righteous bovine excrement on this thread where so many people have the luxury of sitting at a computer 5 hours a day, and enjoy their freedom of speach while spitting on those who ensure it.

Im grateful someone is out there enlisted.. and those of you americans should be as well. Because dont think bush wouldnt have this war anyway.. the draft would just be in place.

#27 · Mar 20, 2003, 09:51 · goingslow

I obviously dont speak for anyone but myself and im sure people will be so insulted i was rude. But stop whining already and if you're so against war do something.

Know how many people who didnt feel like whining anymore are over in iraq acting as shields? Go do that.. do something but stop crying already. I personally am getting sick of hearing you and frank whine on every war thread about how people are killing their brothers and sisters.
If it bothers you that much do something about it. Just please stop whining.

I should have packaged that in fluff im sure but you're a mod here and all you're doing is trying to stir up controversy on a subject that many feel personal about. Maybe if you had family there you'd realize a different perspective. Or maybe if there weren't so many others who were willing to fight for your protections that would give you a more balanced view.

#28 · Mar 20, 2003, 10:04 · Adrian

Greetings goingslow,

Thank you very much for your comments.

quote:
Originally posted by goingslow

And if they didnt join up they'd be drafting people like you if you're even american.

There is no way Bush would be having his war is he had no full time miltary. You can't drag people off the streets and put them in the cockpit of an F16 or at the helm of a ship, or on a cruise missile lancher control. Apart from that, how much support do you think Bush would get if he tried to force people away from their families to risk their lives on the name of continued oil supplies? There would be a state of anarchy.

quote:
Adrian you keep putting your propaganda up in every thread why not leave it to other topics now? Ive seen you do at least three of them in order to put your views on everyone. You dont care who you insult you dont care that many people here have family or friends who might die.

I am stating what I firmly believe to be the truth, whether people agree or not is entirely a matter for each individual.

quote:
You think if no one enlisted then bush wouldnt have his war?

That is correct - he wouldn't.

quote:
Im so sick of some of the self righteous bovine excrement on this thread where so many people have the luxury of sitting at a computer 5 hours a day, and enjoy their freedom of speach while spitting on those who ensure it.

You are under absolutely no obligation to read these threads, or indeed these forums if you don't want to. And furthermore, you have no idea what people do with their time. Actually, I spend a good amount of my own time operating and managing these forums.

The fact is - my views are vindicated by the increasingly fewer wars we are seeing as the decades go by. You look at the situation just 50 or 100 years ago. Look at how much peace has arrived in many regions of the world, and at the hands of the people who occupy those regions.

The USA is self proclaimed as the worlds only "super power", and Bush at least has every intention of wielding that miltary might, at whatever cost in human terms and suffering, (not that he thinks in those terms) and notwithstanding the fact that all of the money spent would be far better deployed in positive actions of a humanitarian kind in the parts of the world that really need it.

The people to deal with the situation in Iraq are the Iraqi people. Just as has happened in many parts of the world including the communist block. Look at Russia and China - compare them and the living standards of their populations from just 20 years ago. It didn't take the USA and their allies to bring this situation about - the countries sorted it all out for themselves - just as Iraq could have done. The main problem is Saddam Hussein, and Iraq has alot of people living there.

China will become much more powerful than the USA in the next decade or so - let's just hope that they don't follow Bush's example.

With best regards,

Adrian.

#29 · Mar 20, 2003, 10:11 · Nerezza

Know how many people who didnt feel like whining anymore are over in iraq acting as shields?

Last I heard they left when Saddam told them to guard military installations, and that they may actually have to die.

#30 · Mar 20, 2003, 10:21 · MJ-12

#31 · Mar 20, 2003, 14:17 · Adrian

Greetings,

quote:
Originally posted by MJ-12
The phrase "I was only following orders" is meaningless. If your military drops a cruise missle in an unjust war on some Iraqi family then that's a war crime.

This is very important. We are advised from the higher spheres that "following orders" is no excuse for hostility, or worse still killing of brothers and sisters of mankind. The Karmic consequences exist and will have to be paid either in this lifetime or a future one.

Again, people are only ordered to do these things because they used their own freewill to join the military and knowingly place themselves in that situation. It is a conscious act, where the likely consequences are known.

Defending "what is right" is totally erroneous in accordance with Universal laws. Only the Divine Providence, being perfection, knows what is right, and temporal interests in all eternity are not right.

If you kill, or are a party to killing, the price will have to be paid. If all humanity knew and understood these truths, along with all truths, and the significance of progression, the world would bethe peaceful, place it was intended to be - the biblical "heaven on earth" which mankind is here to build.

With best regards,

Adrian.

#32 · Mar 20, 2003, 14:25 · Anonymous

I don't trust the American government. Not one bit. It seems like everything they do is for an ultierior motive. There are some real evil geniuses at work behind the scenes, in the Pentagon, the White House, and the Capital Building. They infest congress, the presidency, law enforcement, and covert organizations. How do you think Bush got into office in the first place? What was that whole thing with Ken Starr and Clinton? Actually, it's more the Republican party I don't trust. I think many of them are a bunch of capitalist pigs who care nothing about the benefit of others. They care only about themselves and the money they make, and about their power and control over others to make sure that NOBODY takes it away from them. That's all that matters to them. They serve only Mammon, not God. They are incarnates of greed (is that an exaggeration? Oh well, I'm on a roll). Their right-wing "Christian" attitude isn't fooling anyone. What I despise most about them is how they take a good religion like Christianity and use it to manipulate people into supporting terrible things. It's too bad our culture is so easily swayed. The minds of people are very malleable.

Ahem... I think it's time for us to take action. The only government I will recognize from now on is me. I govern myself. I don't need laws or people telling me what to do. It is up to me to make something of myself, it is up to me to protect myself. It is up to me to serve mankind the best way I can. I'm sick of trying to fit in. I've wasted enough time and energy with that. I don't care what others think. Our culture is disposable and materialistic. All we do is take one thing that's sacred, market it, turn it into a product, and benefit financially from it until it no longer brings us money because everyone has gotten sick of it. Then we move on to another sacred thing, and so on. And people are okay with it. Our culture promotes greed, sex, all of the seven deadly sins, and violence.

Sorry for all the whining. I'm hoping someone will point me in the right direction for taking action. I say what I mean and I mean what I say.

#33 · Mar 20, 2003, 15:24 · Adrian

Greetings Enderwiggin!

quote:
Originally posted by EnderWiggin
Their right-wing "Christian" attitude isn't fooling anyone. What I despise most about them is how they take a good religion like Christianity and use it to manipulate people into supporting terrible things.

I fear that is a characteristic of many religions. The Islamic fundamentalists for example who believe that they will become "martyrs" and go to "paradise" if they die for their religion - e.g. like those who hijacked the 9/11 planes, and many of those on suicide missions in Iraq, Israel and elswhere.

Religions in general are often used by governments to control the masses, through fear of going to whatever their equivalent of "hell" is, and as a basis for the so called laws of their lands. The laws for example that treat females so apallingly - especially in some Islamic countries.

The most ironic aspect about Bush is that he is a "born again christian". From the Gospel of St. John, where I assume these "born agains" refer: Verily, verily I say unto thee, except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of heaven . This does not mean, believe in Jesus, go to church, read the bible and be instantly forgiven and saved. "born again" is symbolically represents the breaking free from the shackles of materialism and physical existence, finding the sacred purpose in Spiritual truths, living life in the Spirit accordingly, constantly striving for perfection, and Spiritual ascent to the ever higher levels of the spheres, which become ever lighter, more peaceful, blissful and beautiful, with Love being the ever stronger force. Only when man/woman is "born again" into this reality, which can take very many lifetimes, can we pursue our true, eternal and sacred purpose.

With best regards,

Adrian.

#34 · Mar 20, 2003, 15:45 · Nerezza

quote:
Originally posted by Adrian

The most ironic aspect about Bush is that he is a "born again christian". From the Gospel of St. John, where I assume these "born agains" refer: Verily, verily I say unto thee, except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of heaven . This does not mean, believe in Jesus, go to church, read the bible and be instantly forgiven and saved. "born again" is symbolically represents the breaking free from the shackles of materialism and physical existence, finding the sacred purpose in Spiritual truths, living life in the Spirit accordingly, constantly striving for perfection, and Spiritual ascent to the ever higher levels of the spheres, which become ever lighter, more peaceful, blissful and beautiful, with Love being the ever stronger force. Only when man/woman is "born again" into this reality, which can take very many lifetimes, can we pursue our true, eternal and sacred purpose.

With best regards,

Adrian.

Very nice Adrian. I have been told that because I am a Catholic, born and raised, I'm not born again so therefore Im no better than devil worshippers and murderers. From what I understand, you can only get to heaven if your in a denomination that sprung up during the 19th century and originated in the southern united states. And imagine the anger in there eyes when I say I don't believe in a rapture!

As for the term born again, I've always believed that passage is simply referring to the fact that there were very few christians at the start of the work of the apostles, therefore pretty much everyone on earth at the time would, by definition, be born again into the christian faith. The bible has to be while keeping in context the time in which it was written.

As for the war:

"50 million people have been killed since peace began in 1945."
-John Keegan

Now back to Battlefield 1942.

#35 · Mar 21, 2003, 03:03 · Adrian

Dear Timeless,

A truly excellent message, and with very considerable wisdom from beginning to end.

There are some important messages. One I would draw attention to is the matter of "ritual". Attending church, and acting out all of the trappings, creed and dogma of religion, and in particular at a church every Sunday, is "ritual". This kind of ritual is performed in blind faith, and often in the hope of buying a ticket to "heaven". There are of course many very good and genuine religious people, who do some truly excellent work for their fellow men and women, and this is certainly not to be disrespectful to dogmatic religion, because we must respect the freewill of everyone to manage their lives and beliefs as they see fit. The road to perfection is eternal, and there are many people being born on this physical planet for the very first time, and only just setting their feet upon the first step of the path.

But "ritual" goes beyond this. There have been (and still are) many esoteric and occult orders who practice all sorts of "ritual", without ever dealing with the most fundamental discipline of all - "know oneself", enoblement, and total mastery of self, the immortal "I" in all spheres - body, Soul and Spirit - without that balance of body, Soul an Spirit, and the accompanying elemental balance, then true ascent is just not possible, regardless of any ritual that is performed whether religiously or esoterically.

Let us all hope that the hostilities in Iraq are short, and with the minimum of suffering and loss of life. My own feeling is that the Iraqi miltary will not put up much of a fight. By far the biggest danger of all is the effect on the world generally, because regardless of what happens next, the forces of darkness will have claimed a victory, and mankind will have been compromised in the most important decade for the future of mankind.

With best regards,

Adrian.

#36 · Mar 21, 2003, 23:01 · Anonymous

I think this site pretty much sums it all up.

http://maddox.xmission.com/tictacs.html

#37 · Mar 21, 2003, 23:21 · Anonymous

Hahaha this one's even better!

http://maddox.xmission.com/limits_to_freedom.html

#38 · Mar 22, 2003, 12:33 · Jenadots

Hi, everyone. Well, so far, no one seems to be blowing up homes, schools, or hospitals. That's good and will hopefully continue.

Can we not demonize anyone?

I also am a bit tired of hearing "Its about the oil." I haven't noticed that they ran out of oil in Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, the UK, Alaska, Texas, or any number of places that we could buy it from. But it probably is about oil for the owners of the French, German and Russian oil contracts with Iraq. Who knows what their interests are.

I did read one very right thing -- if all they had were carrots, we would not care at all about Iraq. Cynically true.

I truly await the day when we in the USA all have hybrid cars and hydrogen fueled generators for our homes and businesses. That would be real independence and return us to our original, traditional values of self-reliance. Then, some of the oil producing countries could get to be as insulated, fundamentalist, and live as medievally as they want to -- and we would get to ignore them. [

]

And, oh yes, I do not mind being called a Yank -- it is what I am. I don't think it is insulting at all.

I do enjoy reading all the comments here, even if I may not agree with every one of them. You all give me a lot to think about.

Just plain ... Jena

#39 · Mar 22, 2003, 15:10 · goingslow

talk whine whine talk whine

#40 · Mar 22, 2003, 15:33 · MJ-12

#41 · Mar 22, 2003, 16:18 · Frank

quote:
Originally posted by Jenadots

Can we not demonize anyone?

I suppose your US propaganda-machine could demonise Jesus himself if given full rein.

quote:
I also am a bit tired of hearing "Its about the oil." I haven't noticed that they ran out of oil in Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, the UK, Alaska, Texas, or any number of places that we could buy it from.

I know, like I intimated in a previous post to this thread it has gone on too long. Though it's not about oil, per se. After all, there are a number of countries you could buy oil from. Not only that, technically, the USA is self-sufficient in oil. But it's cheap-crude upon which your whole economic supremecy is based. The keyword being "cheap".

quote:
But it probably is about oil for the owners of the French, German and Russian oil contracts with Iraq. Who knows what their interests are.

Well, I suppose their oil interests are largely the same. Only the ultimate price they are willing to pay I suspect will be the talking point. I cannot speak for Russian prices but fuel in France and Germany is much the same cost as it is in the UK... very expensive when compared to the US.

quote:
I did read one very right thing -- if all they had were carrots, we would not care at all about Iraq. Cynically true.

Yep, sorry to say. I feel I could support US military action if they were somehow going through a list of dictatorships that exist in this world, and their honest intention was to form a viable democracy then move to the next one. After two or three the rest would cave in and comply. But all they are doing is clearing up their mess from the last time; and the last time all they were doing was clearing up their mess from the time before; which was merely mess from the time before that.....

quote:
I truly await the day when we in the USA all have hybrid cars and hydrogen fueled generators for our homes and businesses. That would be real independence and return us to our original, traditional values of self-reliance. Then, some of the oil producing countries could get to be as insulated, fundamentalist, and live as medievally as they want to -- and we would get to ignore them. [ ]

The price you pay for your fuel is too cheap. While such a situation exists, what you hope for will never happen. Europe currently leads the way for hydrogen-powered cars. BMW have produced a viable model and there are now hydrogen filling stations on an experimental basis.

And I rather think people who live in the oil-producing countries of the middle-east are living insulated, fundamentalist, medieval lives precisely because you cannot just simply ignore them. After all, there would be no Saddam Hussein of Iraq; no arming him to the teeth to fight the "war" with Iran. And all the rest.....

quote:
And, oh yes, I do not mind being called a Yank -- it is what I am. I don't think it is insulting at all.

Thanks, I thought as much. As I said, I just thought it was a commom slang word for an American just as Brit is a common slang word for a British person.

Yours,
Frank

#42 · Mar 22, 2003, 18:06 · Anonymous

Yank, as far as I know, is a slang word in Brittain, Australia, or other coutries with a variable English (Brittish) accent, while Brit is the American slang word for the Brittish. I'm not insulted by the term Yank- I've got friends from Brittain who use the term lightly/loosely, and I know they don't mean anything by it. It is my personal opinion that if one is insulted by these words, then they must be ashamed of their country, which I am- well, not so much the country, just the government and a majority of phonies who seem to make up a large percentage of our ever-ignorant population. I'm proud to be a true American and not just one who supports our government because they think it's "the patriotic thing to do."

So tell me, what do you all think the word "patriotic" means? I think we've already defined Brit and Yank and our opinions on these two words.

One other thing I would like to addres is that another thing that causes a lot of hostility is not knowing when to let something go. It is good to stand up for what you believe is right, and is also good to address an issue you think might be offensive, but sometimes it's best to let the little things go. Can you imagine what the world would be like if people took offense to every little thing? It would be much like America with all the suing over the stupidest things. We'd be at each others' throats and would be afraid to say anything for fear of offending someone. God forbid someone should get offended because another expresses their feelings or thoughts. So what if they are? If you can't take it, then don't dish it out. Sometimes it is not the person's intent to offend when they convey their thoughs through words, yet the other person is so paranoid that they take it offensively. It's all in the person's head sometimes. We can't go through life without offending someone. It's innevitable. That's how we learn about each other. If someone gets offended, it's not good to get offended just because they're offended by what you said. This is all just silly. "I am offended by you." "Oh yeah? Well I'm offended that you feel offended by me." "Oh yeah? Well now I'm offended that you feel offended because you offended me." It could go on and on. But, if someone just let it go in the first place, much energy would be saved. Life is what you make of it. To sum up this gigantic paragraph, life's too short to take things so seriously. Your purpose down here, sure. Stuff like that's fine. Anything sacred should be taken seriously. Anything not sacred, should not.

BTW is the army using sex in their ads yet to get people to join? lol j/k. I'm just making fun of advertisement mentality.

Here's a quote from the website I posted.

"It seems that I offended a few people with my page on Bush. So I've decided to do what I always do when I offend people: I offend them more." There are people out there who don't care who they offend (though I don't think this person was being serious or is one of these people). Just something to think about.

#43 · Mar 22, 2003, 19:04 · Nerezza

I have to say that the day before the invasion began I was having second thoughts. Not so now.

The liberated Iraq people don't seem to mind being invaded.

A group of American anti-war demonstrators who came to Iraq with Japanese human shield volunteers made it across the border today with 14 hours of uncensored video, all shot without Iraqi government minders present. Kenneth Joseph, a young American pastor with the Assyrian Church of the East, told UPI the trip "had shocked me back to reality." Some of the Iraqis he interviewed on camera "told me they would commit suicide if American bombing didn't start. They were willing to see their homes demolished to gain their freedom from Saddam's bloody tyranny. They convinced me that Saddam was a monster the likes of which the world had not seen since Stalin and Hitler. He and his sons are sick sadists. Their tales of slow torture and killing made me ill, such as people put in a huge shredder for plastic products, feet first so they could hear their screams as bodies got chewed up from foot to head."

That was taken from: http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030321-023627-5923r

"There was a machine designed for shredding plastic. Men were dropped into it and we were again made to watch. Sometimes they went in head first and died quickly. Sometimes they went in feet first and died screaming. It was horrible. I saw 30 people die like this. Their remains would be placed in plastic bags and we were told they would be used as fish food . . . on one occasion, I saw Qusay [President Saddam Hussein's youngest son] personally supervise these murders."

This is one of the many witness statements that were taken by researchers from Indict - the organisation I chair - to provide evidence for legal cases against specific Iraqi individuals for war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide. This account was taken in the past two weeks.

Another witness told us about practices of the security services towards women: "Women were suspended by their hair as their families watched; men were forced to watch as their wives were raped . . . women were suspended by their legs while they were menstruating until their periods were over, a procedure designed to cause humiliation."

The accounts Indict has heard over the past six years are disgusting and horrifying. Our task is not merely passively to record what we are told but to challenge it as well, so that the evidence we produce is of the highest quality. All witnesses swear that their statements are true and sign them.

For these humanitarian reasons alone, it is essential to liberate the people of Iraq from the regime of Saddam. The 17 UN resolutions passed since 1991 on Iraq include Resolution 688, which calls for an end to repression of Iraqi civilians. It has been ignored. Torture, execution and ethnic-cleansing are everyday life in Saddam's Iraq.

Were it not for the no-fly zones in the south and north of Iraq - which some people still claim are illegal - the Kurds and the Shia would no doubt still be attacked by Iraqi helicopter gunships.

For more than 20 years, senior Iraqi officials have committed genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity. This list includes far more than the gassing of 5,000 in Halabja and other villages in 1988. It includes serial war crimes during the Iran-Iraq war; the genocidal Anfal campaign against the Iraqi Kurds in 1987-88; the invasion of Kuwait and the killing of more than 1,000 Kuwaiti civilians; the violent suppression, which I witnessed, of the 1991 Kurdish uprising that led to 30,000 or more civilian deaths; the draining of the Southern Marshes during the 1990s, which ethnically cleansed thousands of Shias; and the summary executions of thousands of political opponents.

Many Iraqis wonder why the world applauded the military intervention that eventually rescued the Cambodians from Pol Pot and the Ugandans from Idi Amin when these took place without UN help. They ask why the world has ignored the crimes against them?

All these crimes have been recorded in detail by the UN, the US, Kuwaiti, British, Iranian and other Governments and groups such as Human Rights Watch, Amnesty and Indict. Yet the Security Council has failed to set up a war crimes tribunal on Iraq because of opposition from France, China and Russia. As a result, no Iraqi official has ever been indicted for some of the worst crimes of the 20th century. I have said incessantly that I would have preferred such a tribunal to war. But the time for offering Saddam incentives and more time is over.

I do not have a monopoly on wisdom or morality. But I know one thing. This evil, fascist regime must come to an end. With or without the help of the Security Council, and with or without the backing of the Labour Party in the House of Commons tonight.

Taken from The Times Online

Yesterday afternoon a truck drove down a side road in the Iraqi town of Safwan, laden with rugs and furniture. Booty or precious possessions? In a day of death, joy and looting, it was hard to know.
As the passengers spotted European faces, one boy grinned and put his thumb up. The other nervously waved a white flag. The mixed messages defined the moment: Thank you. We love you. Please don't kill us.

US marines took Safwan at about 8am yesterday. There was no rose-petal welcome, no cheering crowd, no stars and stripes.

Afraid that the US and Britain will abandon them, the people of Safwan did not touch the portraits and murals of Saddam Hussein hanging everywhere. It was left to the marines to tear them down. It did not mean there was not heartfelt gladness at the marines' arrival. Ajami Saadoun Khlis, whose son and brother were executed under the Saddam regime, sobbed like a child on the shoulder of the Guardian's Egyptian translator. He mopped the tears but they kept coming.

"You just arrived," he said. "You're late. What took you so long? God help you become victorious. I want to say hello to Bush, to shake his hand. We came out of the grave."

"For a long time we've been saying: 'Let them come'," his wife, Zahara, said. "Last night we were afraid, but we said: 'Never mind, as long as they get rid of him, as long as they overthrow him, no problem'." Their 29-year-old son was executed in July 2001, accused of harbouring warm feelings for Iran.

"He was a farmer, he had a car, he sold tomatoes, and we had a life that we were satis fied with," said Khlis. "He was in prison for a whole year, and I raised 75m dinars in bribes. It didn't work. The money was gone, and he was gone. They sent me a telegram. They gave me the body."

The marines rolled into the border town after a bombardment which left up to a dozen people dead. Residents gave different figures. A farmer, Haider, who knew one of the men killed, Sharif Badoun, said: "Killing some is worth it, to end the injustice and suffering." The men around him gave a collective hysterical laugh.

The injustice of tyranny was merged in their minds with the effects of sanctions. "Look at the way we're dressed!" said Haider, and scores of men held up their stained, holed clothes. "We are isolated from the rest of the world."

The marines took Safwan without loss, although a tank hit a mine. "They had to clear that route through. They found the way to punch through and about 10 Iraqi soldiers surrendered immediately," said Marine Sergeant Jason Lewis, from Denver, standing at a checkpoint at the entrance to the town where, minutes earlier, a comrade had folded a huge portrait of President Saddam and tucked it into his souvenir box.

The welcome, he admitted, had been cool. "At first they were a little hesitant," he said. "As you know, Saddam's a dictator, so we've got to reassure them we're here to stay _ We tore down the Saddam signs to show them we mean business.

"Hopefully this time we'll do it right, and give these Iraqis a chance of liberty."

But the marines' presence was light. They had not brought food, medicines, or even order. All day hundreds of armoured vehicles poured through the town. But they did not stop, and the looting continued. Every government establishment seemed to be fair game. People covered their faces in shame as they carried books out of a school. Tawfik Mohammed, the headmaster, initially denied his school had been looted, then admitted it. "This is the result of your entering," he said. "Whenever any army enters an area it becomes chaos. We are cautious about the future. We are very afraid."

Safwan yesterday was a place where people were constantly taking you aside to warn in veiled terms that it was necessary to be careful. Everywhere was the lingering fear that the revenge killings that swept the area in 1991 - a product of US encourage ment and then abandonment of the southern Iraqi revolt - could happen again.

"Now, we are afraid [Saddam's] government will come back," said Haider, as the Safwan Farmers' Cooperative was being looted behind him. "We don't trust the Americans any more. People made a revolution, and they didn't help us."

Safwan is a crumbling, dead-end place, full of poor, restless young men, and reliant on the tomato trade for its income. Farmers were panicking yesterday as they asked journalists, in lieu of anyone better, how they were supposed to sell their tomatoes.

A handful of soldiers, mainly US marines but with a few British, are struggling to cope with the chaos and the lack of health care or aid.

At a checkpoint just north of the town two British military policemen with paramedical training and a US doctor rushed to treat two Iraqi men brought in on the back of a beaten-up pick-up truck. Their legs were lacerated by shrapnel. The military policemen did their conscientious best, and may have saved their lives.

Taken from http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,919627,00.html

Saddam Hussein's eldest son mercilessly beats girls as young as 12 on the soles of their feet if they refuse to sleep with him, Iraqi defectors said today.

Uday Hussein forces head teachers of schools in Baghdad's poorest districts to send pupils to his palace where he arranges dates with those he likes.

If the chosen girls annoy him in anyway they are dangled over a wooden beam held by his bodyguards and repeatedly hit with a wooden club, according to two former members of his inner circle who recently fled Iraq.

"He does it to a girl if she says she doesn't want to go out with him, or if she finds another boyfriend, or is late or reluctant," one defector told Vanity Fair magazine.

The 38-year-old warns victims not to flinch while the beating is administered or they will have their legs broken. He often hits them up to 50 times, the report claimed.

Afterwards, when they can barely walk, he orders them to dance.

Uday, head of Iraq's Olympic Committee, was known to have beaten football players and athletes when they lost.

The defectors said he also inflicted beatings, imprisonment and torture on close friends and business associates - simply for being late to a meeting or irritating him.

His punishments have become more brutal since an assassination attempt in 1996 which left him with walking difficulties and problems having sex.

Some victims have been branded on the buttocks with hot irons.

"Uday tells them, 'this mark is never going to go from your body, so you'll remember me until the day you die'," one defector said.

One former friend died after being held down and made to drink huge quantities of pure alcohol.

Business rivals have been shot in the arm or a leg and then allowed to bleed slowly to death.

Uday also likes to deflower virginity, knowing that no one will touch them after he has slept with them, the defectors said.

"He likes joking about with his friends: 'look at her, after this she'll be a prostitute'."

The defectors have been debriefed by MI6 and Pentagon officials and are regarded as reliable sources on the workings of Saddam's regime, the magazine said.

Intelligence officials believe Uday may have been in the bunker hit by a cruise missile in the "decapitation strike" on Baghdad in the first hours of the war.

His younger brother, Qusay, is Saddam's heir after Uday fell out of favour when he murdered a close friend of his father in 1988.

Taken from http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,919627,00.html

But this is all propaganda right? [

]

S. Marines Rip Down Saddam Portraits
Fri Mar 21, 9:41 AM ET

By ELLEN KNICKMEYER, Associated Press Writer

SAFWAN, Iraq - U.S. Marines hauled down giant street portraits of Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) in a screeching pop of metal and bolts Friday, telling nervous residents of this southern Iraqi town that "Saddam is done."

Milling crowds of men and boys watched as the Marines attached ropes on the front of their Jeeps to one portrait and then backed up, peeling the Iraqi leader's black-and-white metal image off a frame. Some locals briefly joined Maj. David "Bull" Gurfein in a new cheer.

"Iraqis! Iraqis! Iraqis!" Gurfein yelled, pumping his fist in the air.

"We wanted to send a message that Saddam is done," said Gurfein, a New York native in the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force. "People are scared to show a lot of emotion. That's why we wanted to show them this time we're here, and Saddam is done."

The Marines arrived in Safwan, just across the Kuwait border, after Cobra attack helicopters, attack jets, tanks, 155 mm howitzers and sharpshooters cleared the way along Route 80, the main road into Iraq (news - web sites).

Safwan, 375 miles south of Baghdad, is a poor, dirty, wrecked town pocked by shrapnel from the last Gulf war (news - web sites). Iraqi forces in the area sporadically fired mortars and guns for hours Thursday and Friday. Most townspeople hid, although residents brought forth a wounded little girl, her palm bleeding after the new fighting. Another man said his wife was shot in the leg by the Americans.

A few men and boys ventured out, putting makeshift white flags on their pickup trucks or waving white T-shirts out truck windows.

"Americans very good," Ali Khemy said. "Iraq wants to be free."

Some chanted, "Ameriki! Ameriki!"

Many others in the starving town just patted their stomachs and raised their hands, begging for food.

A man identifying himself only as Abdullah welcomed the arrival of the U.S. troops: "Saddam Hussein is no good. Saddam Hussein a butcher."

An old woman shrouded in black — one of the very few women outside — knelt toward the feet of Americans, embracing an American woman. A younger man with her pulled her away, giving her a warning sign by sliding his finger across his throat.

In 1991, hundreds of thousands of Iraqis died after prematurely celebrating what they believed was their liberation from Saddam after the Gulf War. Some even pulled down a few pictures of Saddam then — only to be killed by Iraqi forces.

Gurfein playfully traded pats with a disabled man and turned down a dinner invitation from townspeople.

"Friend, friend," he told them in Arabic learned in the first Gulf War.

"We stopped in Kuwait that time," he said. "We were all ready to come up there then, and we never did."

The townspeople seemed grateful this time.

"No Saddam Hussein!" one young man in headscarf told Gurfein. "Bush!"

Then there is this gem: http://komo1000news.com/audio/kvi_aircheck_031003.mp3

Or this:
http://images.radcity.net/5149/359372.mp3

As for the protestors:
http://brain-terminal.com/video/nyc-2003-02-15/quicktime-hq.html

and even worse:
http://brain-terminal.com/video/sf-2003-03-15/quicktime-hq.html

Americans in favor of the war:
http://gallup.com/poll/releases/pr030321.asp

More:
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/26/weekinreview/26JOHN.html?ex=1044248400&en=1aec64f892889c31&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE

Pretty interesting:
http://www.thisislondon.com/news/articles/2283602?source=Evening%20Standard

Etc Etc.

I have plenty more but chances are that if your anti-war, you wouldn't read them anyway(propaganda right?).

Im glad there are so many protestors out there today(except when they get in the way of ambulances [V]), because it shows that freedom still exists on earth.

#44 · Mar 22, 2003, 20:20 · MJ-12

cz?

#45 · Mar 23, 2003, 03:46 · Nerezza

Im not saying the U.S are angels but anyway...

I'd rather not take information from Jeff Rense. Unless I need some information on conspiracy or UFO stories.

Here's a case of reporting from Rense:
http://www.rense.com/general35/zionism.htm

I think someones been reading Mein Kampf. Jewish agenda? Ok.

Or this:
http://www.rense.com/general5/dis1.htm

The Illuminati? Ok moving on...

http://www.rense.com/general35/how.htm
Freemasons are behind it now huh? We're being screwed by the govenment AND ancient secret societies!

A thousand dead today for a million living tomorrow. Such is life.

Aye, fight and you may die; run, and you'll
live, at least a while. And dying in your beds,
many years from now, would you be willing
to trade all the days, from this day to that, for
one chance, just one chance, to come back
here and tell our enemies, they may take our
lives, but they will never take our freedom.

Good old Mel believes in freedom.

#46 · Mar 23, 2003, 06:59 · timeless

Dear Nezerra,

I most certainly am not going to argue that it was bad to free the Shi'a people who were sandwiched between a horrible dictator and sanctions. I say this irrespective of America's pro-active war policy.

Speaking for myself I was against this war for different reasons. I would be interested though in your perspective on the following questions.

1) Do you think the Shi'a people will be given 1/3 representation in a democratic parliment after the war ends? Remember the Shi'as are very Islamic in their religious views. This has many Suffi and Kurd's upset since they view the Islamics as very backwards. There is almost no tolerance for Islam or what are seen as Iranian type views. Women are especially concern since Suffi and Kurdish women no longer have the viel and have some education rights and can work outside of the home. America will have no choice but stay in Iraq for quite awhile till things settle in if stability is the goal.

2) If somehow a parliment can be constructed that suceeds and economic stability and growth is achieved in Iraq do you think Iran will just sit around in cold war style while the Americans do their work? Remember Iran's government is a repressive dictatorship not that much unlike Russia. The government of Iran can not afford to have an open free economy with free opinion floating along their longest boarder. This is not a short boarder like that between Iraq and Kuwait. A free economy right next door would cause too much instability to their own governance. With communication as it is today they know they will have an even tougher time than Russia did holding things together and no wall can stop this. Sorry if I seem overly pessimistic in my view but I am almost certain that Iran will start a war before it even gets to this point. Now we are talking suffering. Remember they are armed by Russia to the teeth (and some some say also by the Chinese but that is conspiracy theory which I am not that interested in). Oh! Remember also that not only Russia but the French have huge investments in Iran.

3) How do you think America is going to respond to threats such as this one from Iran?
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/3/18/105154.shtml
American economics may play a role here, but I don't think the American people are worried enough about their economy to loudly appose their president YET!

4) When America goes to war with Iran how do you think Saudi Arabia and Syria will react?

5) How do you think this war will impact the war on terrorism (taking into account the countries that have large investments in Iran)?
Will this squash terrorism or increase it? Encourage more governments to support America of fewer governments?

6) Why do you think Iran is more than happy to see Saddam go but want America out immediately after this is done?
Hmmm...Nice messed up country next door. Easy pickings? Nice rich oil south with Islamics who could easily be folded into Iran. Now, is America going to leave right after ousting Saddam?

7) Why do you think France, Russia, Germany, China were appose to this war? America seems puzzled. I'm not. While America was busy labelling Iran as part of the 'axis of absolute evil' The above countries were busy communicating, engaging Iran. They are much more informed of the mentality of this country. France has been hoping for a slow opening of this economy...sort of like China. Hey Iranians are able to play music again (use to be forbidden). Hmmm...but we North Americans aren't very patient people are we. How much do you think Bush understands Iranian mentality vs. these countries? If Bush does understand...well...now I am really concerned for the middle east.

I won't ask you anything about why North Korea postured everytime America put big threats towards Iraq. I am sure that in the next few months the reason for this will become quite apparent to all.

P.S. I had a smaller concern, that the attack on Iraq would spawn massive oil fires which would have been many times more difficult to put out than they were in Kuwait. This is because the size, distance between oil wells and geography of Iraq. Fortunately a lot fewer oil wells were blown up than I expected.

Of course, if you see this as a what if game. Do not play. But I personally do not see that many what ifs. More when will for me.

Regards,
timeless

#47 · Mar 23, 2003, 08:51 · Nerezza

1) Do you think the Shi'a people will be given 1/3 representation in a democratic parliment after the war ends? Remember the Shi'as are very Islamic in their religious views. This has many Suffi and Kurd's upset since they view the Islamics as very backwards. There is almost no tolerance for Islam or what are seen as Iranian type views.

Shi'a arabs are the major religion in Iraq, like Christianity is in the western world. In our democracy, religion is separate from state, it should be in the new Iraqi democracy. Do I think they will be given 1/3 representation? It's far to early to tell given that the war isn't even over yet.

Questions 2,3, and 4 are essentially the same, and the answer is, if the U.S made a dollar down everytime a country in the middleeast threatened Jihad, the U.S could pay of their debts and still have enough to go to a matinee. It will happen regardless of war or not.

5) How do you think this war will impact the war on terrorism (taking into account the countries that have large investments in Iran)?
Will this squash terrorism or increase it? Encourage more governments to support America of fewer governments?

Terrorism threats will increase, no doubt about it. But inaction would result in more successful terrorist attacks. You will never squash terrorism. It's a lose lose situation. 9/11 happened before the Iraq war, something probably bigger will happen in the future.

6) One last question. Why do you think France, Russia, Germany, China were appose to this war? America seems puzzled. I'm not. While America was busy labelling them as part of the 'axis of absolute evil' The above countries were busy communicating, engaging Iran. They are much more informed of the mentality of this country. France has been hoping for a slow opening of this economy...sort of like China. Hey they are able to play music again (use to be forbidden). How much do you think Bush understands Iranian mentality vs. these countries?

France, Russia, and Germany have trade pacts with Iraq, thats why. It's not because they give a damn about the Iraqi people. China really could care less, they are isolationists and once and a while add something to the debate.

Why do you keep mentioning Iran? What about Israel and the fact that they are surrounded by people that want to nuke them? Wouldn't Israel benefit from one less nation wanting to destroy them?

Lets look at it this way. The U.S dropped nukes on Japan to end the war faster and tactitians agree that lives were actually saved in the long run. Should the U.S. of waited and let the war continue longer than was necessary?

That artical you gave me has an interesting quote:

In January, Hamas leader Abdel Aziz Rantisi told a crowd in Gaza: "We call on the Arabs and Muslims to burn the land under the feet of the American invaders, especially our brothers in Saudi Arabia because this war is not against Iraq, it's against the Islamic nation."

Let me ask you a question. Do you believe this war is against the Islamic nation?

Of course, if you see this as a what if game. Do not play. But I personally do not see that many what ifs. More when will for me.

Life is a what if game. What if you studied something else in school, what would happen? What if you marry one person over another? What if you went outside instead of staying indoors? "What if" is irrelevant because there are no guarantees in life, especially in war. We make "what if" decisions everyday. The U.S has chosen to attack iraq, rather than wait and see if they will attack the U.S.

Time will tell if everything will work out for the best, but it seldom does in world events. People assumed that during the cold war, the world would be destroyed, and yet it hasn't.

What if the U.S waited and were later attacked, whose side would the protestors be on? Are sides irrelevant when when it's your people being attacked?

I think what the problem is in this whole debate is the fact that something has to be done, and that something is a dirty three letter word that no one likes to use.

This will be my last post in this thread, because I think it's disrespectful to the troops and civilians dieing over there right now. Especially those just captured...

#48 · Mar 23, 2003, 09:29 · timeless

Dear Nezerra,

I see, you do think this is a what if game. That's okay. That is the big difference between you and I. I see very few what ifs. War with Iran is inevitable. Not because America sees this as a war with Islam....Remember what I keep saying....it is world perception that ends the day.

America and people with your mind set keep ignoring other perceptions than your own. You see it this way. So it is this way. Of course! Hmmmm....Nope sorry.

America must see other countries view on this situation and not ignore these perceptions. Otherwise they will find that they get themselves in one hell of a mess. Opps! Too late. Iran sees this as a serious war against Islam, that darn perception thing again. You have ignored this at your own follie. America had better do really heavy damage control with Iran fast or they are out of luck. No peace agreement with Palestine will quell Iran.

As for peace agreement with Isreal. How will the US deal with an Isreal who believes the Americans will betray it. They believe the Americans will seek to regain favour with the Arab world after the Iraq war by bullying Isreal into giving a better deal to the Palestinians. Wow! There is a lot of Trust there! Even Americans strongest allies do not trust America! That will make peace talks easy.

As we grow spiritually we come to see that in a dualistic world there is no truth...only perception. Ignore another man's perception and conflict is inevitable unless he/she is a very wise person. Unfortunately, not enough of those in the world. Do not let the beliefs and filters you were born into fool you...truth lyes on higher planes than this dualistic plane.

Another set of questions:
Why do you think Iran is more than happy to see Saddam go but want America out immediately after this is done?
Hmmm...Nice messed up country next door. Easy pickings? Nice rich oil south with Islamics who could easily be folded into Iran. Now, is America going to leave right after ousting Saddam?

Regards,
timeless

#49 · Mar 23, 2003, 09:54 · Nerezza

I see, you do think this is a what if game. That's okay. That is the big difference between you and I. I see very few what ifs. War with Iran is inevitable. Not because America sees this as a war with Islam....Remember what I keep saying....it is world perception that ends the day.

If I came out that way, I apoligize. I use humor to make a point sometimes, but do not assume that I think of this as a game.

America and people with your mind set keep ignoring other perceptions than your own. You see it this way. So it is this way. Of course! Hmmmm....Nope sorry.

Im glad you know me so well. Are you my soul mate? But really, arn't you doing the same thing? You just said that your way of seeing things is the right way, or implied it.

America must see other countries view on this situation and not ignore these perceptions. Otherwise they will find that they get themselves in one hell of a mess. Opps! Too late. Iran sees this as a serious war against Islam, that darn perception thing again. You have ignored this at your own follie. America had better do really heavy damage control with Iran fast or they are out of luck. No peace agreement with Palestine will quell Iran.

I will not discuss the war anymore, as stated.

As for peace agreement with Isreal. How will the US deal with an Isreal who believes the Americans will betray it. They believe the Americans will seek to regain favour with the Arab world after the Iraq war by bullying Isreal into giving a better deal to the Palestinians. Wow! There is a lot of Trust there! Even Americans strongest allies do not trust America! That will make peace talks easy.

Israel is one of the United States biggest allies. The U.S has promised Sharon billions in aid this year.

As we grow spiritually we come to see that in a dualistic world there is no truth...only perception. Ignore another mans perception and conflict is inevitable unless he/she is a very wise person. Unfortunately, not enough of those in the world. Do not let the beliefs and filters you were born into fool you...truth lyes on higher planes than this dualistic plane.

Im the last to hide behind psuedo-enlightenment and newage belief to get my point across. Don't assume because someone holds a different opinion than you that they are born into a lie, nor attack the person who won't see it your way. Perception and truth. Think about it, I "percieve" that dog is really a cat, but I really know the "truth", it's a dog. But that's for another forum.

Doing the christian thing(I was born blind into it), I will ask for your forgiveness. I have upset you somehow and im sorry but I do not share your beliefs, it does happen, though understand that I respect them. If this is not enough, I can't offer you anything more.

#50 · Mar 23, 2003, 11:10 · timeless

quote:
Originally posted by Nerezza

I see, you do think this is a what if game. That's okay. That is the big difference between you and I. I see very few what ifs. War with Iran is inevitable. Not because America sees this as a war with Islam....Remember what I keep saying....it is world perception that ends the day.

If I came out that way, I apoligize. I use humor to make a point sometimes, but do not assume that I think of this as a game.

America and people with your mind set keep ignoring other perceptions than your own. You see it this way. So it is this way. Of course! Hmmmm....Nope sorry.

Im glad you know me so well. Are you my soul mate? But really, arn't you doing the same thing? You just said that your way of seeing things is the right way, or implied it.

America must see other countries view on this situation and not ignore these perceptions. Otherwise they will find that they get themselves in one hell of a mess. Opps! Too late. Iran sees this as a serious war against Islam, that darn perception thing again. You have ignored this at your own follie. America had better do really heavy damage control with Iran fast or they are out of luck. No peace agreement with Palestine will quell Iran.

I will not discuss the war anymore, as stated.

As for peace agreement with Isreal. How will the US deal with an Isreal who believes the Americans will betray it. They believe the Americans will seek to regain favour with the Arab world after the Iraq war by bullying Isreal into giving a better deal to the Palestinians. Wow! There is a lot of Trust there! Even Americans strongest allies do not trust America! That will make peace talks easy.

Israel is one of the United States biggest allies. The U.S has promised Sharon billions in aid this year.

As we grow spiritually we come to see that in a dualistic world there is no truth...only perception. Ignore another mans perception and conflict is inevitable unless he/she is a very wise person. Unfortunately, not enough of those in the world. Do not let the beliefs and filters you were born into fool you...truth lyes on higher planes than this dualistic plane.

Im the last to hide behind psuedo-enlightenment and newage belief to get my point across. Don't assume because someone holds a different opinion than you that they are born into a lie, nor attack the person who won't see it your way. Perception and truth. Think about it, I "percieve" that dog is really a cat, but I really know the "truth", it's a dog. But that's for another forum.

Doing the christian thing(I was born blind into it), I will ask for your forgiveness. I have upset you somehow and im sorry but I do not share your beliefs, it does happen, though understand that I respect them. If this is not enough, I can't offer you anything more.

You miss interperted my statement about the Sorry Nope! I was not saying your perception was wrong. What I was saying was that yours is only one perception and not necessarily the most important perception in this whole mess.

As for the game. You did not wish to address my questions because they were too much a what if. You wish to stay in the present and deal with the present, it seems. Does this exclude your desire to look ahead to future potential implications? If so I can understand now why you are pleased with how this war has gone. I merely wish to understand your mind set and why you are so for this war.

Sharon was the one who stated on TV that he would not let America bully him into an agreement that favours Palestine, just so America could save face in the Arab world. So this was a perception that came out of the mouth of Mr. Sharon. Mind you the interperter might have done a poor job. That I can not say since I do not speak Hebrew.

I guess I did not explain myself well enough with the perception thing. What I was getting at is that very few of us knows what really happens in this world. Can you hand me the fish food bag? Did you hear Saddams son give the order? Did you make sure no one paid the man to say this? You believe because this is part of your perception of what is real and makes sense. You call what MJ-12 presents propaganda and conspiracy theory. This arguement works well for you. Why should it not work for me or others? Or do you believe the American media never lies? Like I said very few of us will ever now what really happens in this world. Even if we see for ourselves something first hand and know it is real, few of us will walk away understanding why it really happened. We are mostly left with our perceptions of what really happens in this world. Truth is above perception and should never be confused with what we percieve to be real.

Because of this all we can really do is attempt to gain as much perspective as possible in life and seek to understand as many people as we can.

If you perceived that I was attacking you I am sorry. All I ever hope to accomplish in these situations is to get someone to think or more importantly gain their perspective. If asking questions in the hope of making someone think or more importantly in the hope to understand their perception of this world, is perceived to be an attack I will have to rethink how I deal with people. Again I am sorry.

Sincerely,
timeless

P.S. You in no way offended me at all. I am merely too curious for my own good sometimes. Plus, I was seriously interested in your answers to my questions because I really would perfer that my perspective be wrong. I would perfer that this be much, much simpler. It is the numerous implications down the road that most of us apposed to war are concerned about though. I wanted to see what your view on some of these 'implications' was.

#51 · Mar 23, 2003, 11:23 · Tom

The world is a very big place and I have not met anyone who knows everything going on in it, either. Lots of people are only too happy to tell me, though, and the only price for their help is that I must agree completely with their perspective. No one really sets out to make the world a worse place, but acting without having enough facts can lead to this result. Sometimes I think too many people are doing too much and that more people should have the courage to sit down, be quiet, and learn. This is the approach I take most often. My friends accuse me of not caring and of not trying to help.

#52 · Mar 23, 2003, 12:51 · Nerezza

As for the game. You did not wish to address my questions because they were too much a what if. You wish to stay in the present and deal with the present, it seems. Does this exclude your desire to look ahead to future potential implications? If so I can understand now why you are pleased with how this war has gone. I merely wish to understand your mind set and why you are so for this war.

In essence yes. I've spent the better part of my life dreaming of times and events down the future, only to find myself back where I started. Im tired of looking at a tomorrow that may not happen. And, im not salivating over my keyboard at the thought of people going to war. If I was, I would want the U.S army to roll through to baghdad in one day, or perhaps nuke the city and call it a day.

Sharon was the one who stated on TV that he would not let America bully him into an agreement that favours Palestine, just so America could save face in the Arab world. So this was a perception that came out of the mouth of Mr. Sharon. Mind you the interperter might have done a poor job. That I can not say since I do not speak Hebrew.

Actually your right, he did say that. But keep in perspective the situation in which it was said. Daily suicide bombings while the world cried foul at Israeli retaliation. But thats another matter.

I guess I did not explain myself well enough with the perception thing. What I was getting at is that very few of us knows what really happens in this world. Can you hand me the fish food bag? Did you hear Saddams son give the order? Did you make sure no one paid the man to say this? You believe because this is part of your perception of what is real and makes sense. You call what MJ-12 presents propaganda and conspiracy theory. This arguement works well for you. Why should it not work for me or others? Or do you believe the American media never lies? Like I said very few of us will ever now what really happens in this world. Even if we see for ourselves something first hand and know it is real, few of us will walk away understanding why it really happened. We are mostly left with our perceptions of what really happens in this world. Truth is above perception and should never be confused with what we percieve to be real.

The media lies period, when it suits them. I've studied the media and how it influences society in a couple of university courses and the things that are done would make you question the point of the news media.

We are different people, my beliefs are built in logic and facts(not saying your not, just that I depend on them to a fault). I would make a staunch atheist. That being said, a site which proclaims UFO's on mars and zionist disneyland does not appeal to those beliefs while CNN (for the most part) does. But that is who I am.

Because of this all we can really do is attempt to gain as much perspective as possible in life and seek to understand as many people as we can.

100% agree.

If you perceived that I was attacking you I am sorry. All I ever hope to accomplish in these situations is to get someone to think or more importantly gain their perspective. If asking questions in the hope of making someone think or more importantly in the hope to understand their perception of this world, is perceived to be an attack I will have to rethink how I deal with people. Again I am sorry.

Your questions were fine, your comments about me being born in a lie was what bothered me[

]

P.S. You in no way offended me at all. I am merely too curious for my own good sometimes. Plus, I was seriously interested in your answers to my questions because I really would perfer that my perspective be wrong. I would perfer that this be much, much simpler. It is the numerous implications down the road that most of us apposed to war are concerned about though. I wanted to see what your view on some of these 'implications' was.

I prefer that your perspective is right, as I believe it would be less painful. I would love to be wrong, I pray that I am, but im just not seeing it. I do understand your point of view though, it's just that im tired of looking ahead to something which may never happen all the time.

"This one a long time have I watched. All his life has he looked away, to the future, to the horizon. Never his mind on where he was! What he was doing!"

A great man said that, anyone know who? [

]

Also...

Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future.

Last, I apologize MJ-12(who will undoubtly find fault in my assumption that his link was from a subjective site). I still stick by my convictions on the matter, I've been tricked before. Theres a saying thats used alot, "If it's on the internet, it most be true". I have no choice but to carefully looked at the site in which I get the information.

Tom,

Ever the voice of reason.

The world is a very big place and I have not met anyone who knows everything going on in it, either. Lots of people are only too happy to tell me, though, and the only price for their help is that I must agree completely with their perspective. No one really sets out to make the world a worse place, but acting without having enough facts can lead to this result. Sometimes I think too many people are doing too much and that more people should have the courage to sit down, be quiet, and learn. This is the approach I take most often. My friends accuse me of not caring and of not trying to help.

I've watched video's on the internet of executions, gang beatings in which people have rocks crush their heads while on tape. Some one getting his fingers cut off while awake, the daniel pearl video, a video in which a man was placed on the ground and shot in the jaw and lived for a few minutes with the wound until he was finally killed, and otheres equally brutal than I care to remember. I've seen these things from a video screen and yet it has affected me to the point where I no longer blink an eye to footage of mass graves or whatnot. Im indifferent and i've grown cold and cruel and now im trying to regain a bit of my humanity back by wanting torture to stop. That is why I don't want to debate the war anymore, hearing about the captured soldiers being executed despite the Geneva Convention, it put over the top. People suffering is not a game to me, and I would without question sacrifice myself in a war if it meant innocent people wouldn't have to suffer.

When I die I will be judged. A judgement on myself, or from God, or a mixture of both. To me, at the present, I can live with wanting pain to stop, through any means necessary(oxymoron?).

#53 · Mar 23, 2003, 14:15 · Frank

Hmm... an interesting and honest judgement from Nerazza. It kinda makes me wonder about your past history and the future incarnations you have yet to endure.

Fact is, all Arab leaders are walking on a tightrope right now. Your US-talk about, "democracy in Iraq" is sending shudders down their collective spine. Middle Eastern regimes share many features with Saddam's. They are very un-democratic and repressive. Though not to the same extreme as Iraq. (But, then again, SH was a puppet of the US originally so what can you expect.) Plus, these regimes have precious little respect for the rule of law; and *regularly* abuse the human rights of their people.

Yet the USA have friendly relations with ALL these states!!! Not only that, the USA has totally failed to exert any serious pressure on them to reform. It is perhaps unfortunate that recent events have made the leaders of these countries fearful of the fact that a new democratic regime in Iraq, may cause their people to demand such similar freedoms for themselves.

Ultimately, I detect more of the kind of seething anger that demolished your twin-towers may well be the order of the day for a while yet.

We will wait and see.

Yours,
Frank

#54 · Mar 23, 2003, 14:23 · timeless

Dear Nezerra,

Thank you for the greater insight into your thoughts and beliefs. It is deeply appreciated. By the way I used the term 'what if game' because this is what Ari (one of the white house spokesmen) called it one day. He said he did not want to play it. I in no way meant to infer that you thought war was a game.

I must respectfully disagree that one should not place their decisions in a broader context, looking at their future impacts. Wise people constantly temper what they say and do because they are aware of the power of words and actions on others and the future.

Regards,
timeless

#55 · Mar 23, 2003, 14:37 · Nerezza

I agree that not all thoughts should be centered on the present. It leaves room for inconsistency and carelessness to make it's way into 'the plan', whatever that may be. I just don't want to dwell to long on it.

It kinda makes me wonder about your past history and the future incarnations you have yet to endure.

I've spent my time trying to find out who I am right now, and someday I may need to find out(after sometime researching reincarnation that is), what past lives I may of had. I've always thought though that no matter how mundane life may be at the moment, when it's all said and done, it would make a great movie. Oh well, we will see.

#56 · Mar 23, 2003, 14:40 · Nerezza

And by the way, just incase in gets on people nerves.

The way I respond to posts is usually like this:

Your Paragraph/Sentence

My Paragraph/Sentence

I've been told that this annoys people but the only reason I do it is because it's easier for me to read and respond without having to scroll the screen down. If this doesn't bother you, it hasn't annoyed you....yet.

#57 · Mar 23, 2003, 15:59 · Frank

quote:
Originally posted by Nerezza

I've spent my time trying to find out who I am right now, and someday I may need to find out(after sometime researching reincarnation that is), what past lives I may of had. I've always thought though that no matter how mundane life may be at the moment, when it's all said and done, it would make a great movie. Oh well, we will see.

That's a nice response which I feel will always stand you in good stead. Here's wishing you the best of luck.

Yours,
Frank

#58 · Mar 23, 2003, 17:32 · BDHugh

Hi Timeless,

Right now, a majority (I believe 2/3) of Iranians are under 30 and do not represent the current leadership in that country. They are in fact mainly pro-American which I believe is because of our culture. They have tried very hard to communicate with the American government. I have seen documentaries in which for most of those people it is popular to watch MTV, popular films, and shop for designer clothing over the internet. This does not sound very much like a strong fundamentalist Muslim population.

#59 · Mar 23, 2003, 19:12 · timeless

quote:
Originally posted by BDHugh

Hi Timeless,

Right now, a majority (I believe 2/3) of Iranians are under 30 and do not represent the current leadership in that country. They are in fact mainly pro-American which I believe is because of our culture. They have tried very hard to communicate with the American government. I have seen documentaries in which for most of those people it is popular to watch MTV, popular films, and shop for designer clothing over the internet. This does not sound very much like a strong fundamentalist Muslim population.

Dear BDHugh,

Yes I am very aware of what you are speaking of:
http://cbn.org/cbnnews/news/030205a.asp

The impression of Iran I have is as follows:
Washington Post March 23, 2003
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world/iran/front.html
Note: Iran is the largest country in the Middle East with 66 million people. About half the population lives in poverty. Poverty does not bode well to any situation.

The government still holds tremendous power over its people. What I like about this website is it summarizes reports from Reuters, BBC and the like and gives the dates so you can then go and obtain the original articles with very little search effort.
http://www.newprophecy.net/iranrevolt.htm

And actually your point could be seen as supporting my present opinion, very well. How? Well, when a dictatorship feels threatened it often is more likely to lash out quickly than wait. It is more likely to take matters into its own hands as fast as possible before revolution is even a consideration. They hate any reference to America in their country. Just look at the sentence these poor ba*tards got.
http://www.rferl.org/nca/features/2003/02/02022003163136.asp

Definitely given time this country would topple its government. The French view I believe was correct.

This is an oppressive dictatorship. The people in control of the country are fundementalists. They would love to have the Shi'a people from Iraq as part of their country. This is because the Iraqi Shi'a people are more fundementalist that their counterparts in Iran and therefore much more to the liking of the present Iranian government. When I was referring to fundementalism in Iran I was speaking of its cleric controlled government. I definitely should have clarified this and must say sorry for not doing so.

The 'best senerio' is a revolution that the American army ends up supporting in a rather bloody battle against a much, much better army with more gun power than the Iraqi soldiers dreamed of having. Is all this really necessary? Is it best for the Iranian people? What is to stop the Iranian cleric controlled government for sending some of their deadly weaponry into the middle of Iraq away from the Shi'as. No love lost for the Americans or the Iraqis there, for the present Iranian government at least.

Regards,
timeless

#60 · Mar 24, 2003, 00:41 · Anonymous

As angry as I am at all the terrible things our government has done and is doing to both its own people and other people of the world, I am relieved that at least there are people in the government who are trying to make a positive difference. Do you think for one minute Bush believes in astral projection? Quite unlikely. He's not a very good example in my opinion- not because of this fact, but because I feel that he's not doing his best with the knowledge that he has. However, I will say that I am somewhat relieved the war has started, in a strange way. It's like a blister that has just popped. It was bound to happen eventually, and it has. So far it seems like there is minimal loss of life. I hope it stays that way throughout the end.

I don't know why the heck I am up right now, I should be waking up in 5- well, almost 4 now- hours to get ready for class. I guess something is just on my mind. I think it's the fact that I worry too much. I had an extremely peaceful feeling- and then I got really thirsty, so I got a drink and that's why I'm up. For a bit, I felt a great pressure on my chest but I was able to push it off. Some say this is the demon Mare, but I didn't sense any presence, it was more like a big rock on my chest. I probably could've used this to get into OBE state, which I've been trying to do for so long now. What are the odds of it happening by accident?

Anyway, I should do some research myself into my past lives. I know nothing about them and I am really getting to the point now where I need to find out what purpose I was (re)incarnated for.

#61 · Mar 24, 2003, 00:58 · Chance

quote:
Originally posted by Frank

Ultimately, I detect more of the kind of seething anger that demolished your twin-towers may well be the order of the day for a while yet.

We will wait and see.

Frank,

I must say that I have observed similar thoughts from you over and over again. It, and correct me if I am wrong, almost seems as if you are wishing this upon America. You have stated that you detect seething anger. No offense, but from all that I have read from you, there seems to be some seething anger coming from yourself. Perhaps that is why it is so easily and readily detected? Just a thought...I could be way off base and apologize thusly if so...

Let me remind you that the people killed in the Trade Center that day were from almost, if not, every country in the World, including Great Britain. Anytime a disaster of this sort befalls the US, it befalls the WORLD. We are the melting pot. And regardless of the pitfalls that we find ourselves trying to avoid, America is the Greatest Host in the entire WORLD. And before you or Adrian try to ream me about how hard it is to attain citizenship, let me point out that our country takes in people who are being oppressed, tortured and killed from more countries in this World than you can shake a stick at.

The IDEALS of America are what America is about...Not the bastardizations of our ideals committed by our government and corporate leaders.

Adrian,

I know this is old stuff I am rehashing here but I couldn't let it rest. Mostly because I believe once past your righteous anger you will process what I have to share.

quote:
Originally posted by Adrian

Greetings,
quote:
Originally posted by MJ-12
The phrase "I was only following orders" is meaningless. If your military drops a cruise missle in an unjust war on some Iraqi family then that's a war crime.

This is very important. We are advised from the higher spheres that "following orders" is no excuse for hostility, or worse still killing of brothers and sisters of mankind. The Karmic consequences exist and will have to be paid either in this lifetime or a future one.

Again, people are only ordered to do these things because they used their own freewill to join the military and knowingly place themselves in that situation. It is a conscious act, where the likely consequences are known.

Defending "what is right" is totally erroneous in accordance with Universal laws. Only the Divine Providence, being perfection, knows what is right, and temporal interests in all eternity are not right.

If you kill, or are a party to killing, the price will have to be paid. If all humanity knew and understood these truths, along with all truths, and the significance of progression, the world would bethe peaceful, place it was intended to be - the biblical "heaven on earth" which mankind is here to build.

With best regards,

Adrian.

Adrian,
Has the higher spheres spoken to you about the Transmutive qualities of the VIOLET FLAME? Have you heard of Saint Germain? Is it within you to attempt to use your SPIRIT to assist in Transmuting past/present and future Karma for the GOOD of the UNIVERSE as well as TERRA? It is what we should all be doing. Instead of acting like a bunch of hellfire and brimstone preachers, perhaps our best course of action is to ask SPIRIT to allow us to embody forgiveness and call upon the VIOLET FLAME/RAY to help transmute KARMA, rather than preaching retribution!

http://thevioletflame.tripod.com/

Wonderful meditation/music... http://www.crystalinks.com/medmusicvf.html

About Saint Germain... http://www.tsl.org/masters/stgermain/sg_set.asp

I share this with you Adrian, not to criticize your take on the war and actions of the participants. I share it in the hopes that you will be able to help embody and ground the Violet Ray here on Earth so we can begin to move from a place of anger and blame to a place of forgiveness and love for all the souls of the World...Regardless of the uniform they wear or country they hail from...Let's face it, we all hail from the same source...May we all remember that...

P.S. I will be performing my own version of the Violet Ray Meditation every day around noon Pacific Coast (AMERICA) time. I invite all souls who read this or will share it, to do the same whenever they can find the time. I, too, wish to live in Heaven on Earth and will do whatever I can to fulfill that appointment.

CHEERS!

#62 · Mar 24, 2003, 06:15 · timeless

Dear Chance,

Thank you for the violet flame meditation. I have been doing meditative prayer three times a day for Iraq. In the hopes that as little damage and loss of life as possible can be achieved for both sides. Any extra tools you can offer are greatly welcome.

I also wished to say that it is very difficult for any of us to remain centered and perfectly calm while this is going on. I was expecting a lot more arguing in the forum then there has been which is a testement to the self control of the people here, inspite of strong convictions on both sides of this arguement.

I am now planning to widen my prayers for the region around Iraq with great focus on Iran and Turkey. I guess the white houses statements a month back, of wanting to start a 'democracy domino effect' are now concerning me. Please understand that democracy is great it is just I see huge risks pushing it too quickly, in this part of the world. I greatly love all people and their suffering rips my heart out as it does every day when I do my prayers for Africa. My hope is that more people; search for truth on the higher planes, do their own thinking, open their hearts, come to understand the possible flaws in any perception, and that they try to see each others perceptions so that mutual understanding and respect can be achieved.

Love, Light and Wisdom to this World and All in it,
timeless

#63 · Mar 24, 2003, 07:11 · clandestino

Frank (and others who are interested of course),

next month Al jazeera launch the English version of their internet news site....Should be an interesting read. I think that it is being launched with the BBC's help, not entirely sure though...

Al jazeera yesterday broadcast interviews with members of the 51st division (they are the ones who "surrendered" the other day). Either the US army are lying, or the Iraqi's are at it again....who knows.

And I had to laugh when George Bush stood up in front of the world talking about the Geneva Convention !! "treat our prisoners humanely, blah blah blah....". I agree completely with him - So why has he violated the Geneva convention by holding prisoners indefinitely at "camp x-ray", humiliating them before the world by parading them before cameras, and denying them access to legal rights ??!!!

Of course, Bush and his merry band of lawyers would no doubt object, saying that the location in Cuba is exempt from the convention. Hmmm.

As you can see, my attitude towards this "war" hasn't changed.
1) there is no evidence of weapons of mass destruction; the weapons inspectors weren't allowed to finish their job.
2) there is no backing for this war in the international community - besides the usual "ums" and "ahhs" from 40 odd countries, only 4 or 5 nations have commited troops to the cause.
3) The double-standards set by the US are, as usual, open for all to see. Will the "coalition" attack n. Korea ? or China even ? Both of whom fit the same bill as Iraq. I have a feeling that they won't - perhaps because they'd get beaten.

This war is a turning point in world opinion of the united states, not just my opinion. I've got no qualms with american people - just american foreign policy.

mark

#64 · Mar 24, 2003, 11:57 · Frank

quote:
Originally posted by Chance
Frank,
I must say that I have observed similar thoughts from you over and over again. It, and correct me if I am wrong, almost seems as if you are wishing this upon America.

Me, lord no. I would not wish harm on anyone. It would just come right back at me and obstruct my development.

I do note, however, as I have posted about several times, there are seemingly ever-increasing numbers of people in this world who DO wish harm on America: as the space in New York where two huge buildings used to sit, amply demonstrates.

quote:
You have stated that you detect seething anger. No offense, but from all that I have read from you, there seems to be some seething anger coming from yourself. Perhaps that is why it is so easily and readily detected?

Amateur psychotherapy aside: I think it is plain not just to me, but for most normal people to detect: it must surely be obvious the destruction of those two buildings (and a large slice of the Pentagon building) could not have been planned and performed out of love for the American people.

quote:
Anytime a disaster of this sort befalls the US, it befalls the WORLD.

Since when has a disaster of this sort ever befallen the US?

Naturally, I do not agree with their motives, but wasn't the whole plan of the "terrorists" ultimately to cause America to suffer (for the first time) some kind of inkling of the collective-suffering people in the world have had to endure the past 3 or 4 decades as a result of American foreign policy?

Another thing perhaps you should remind yourself is that the American population is but a tiny minority of people in that region you call: The World. Okay, you may well consume over 70% of the world's energy and produce around 50% of the world's solid waste. But you are a tiny minority, nonetheless.

quote:
We are the melting pot. And regardless of the pitfalls that we find ourselves trying to avoid, America is the Greatest Host in the entire WORLD. And before you or Adrian try to ream me about how hard it is to attain citizenship, let me point out that our country takes in people who are being oppressed, tortured and killed from more countries in this World than you can shake a stick at.

Okay, let's compare figures as a percentage of population. We had around 130,000 asylum-seekers enter Britain last year.

quote:
The IDEALS of America are what America is about...Not the bastardizations of our ideals committed by our government and corporate leaders.

Yep, we all know what modern-day America is about. It doesn't take all that much brainpower. Like I say, if Iraq's primary export potential were carrots... then no-one in the USA would give a stuff.

Yours,
Frank

#65 · Mar 24, 2003, 13:41 · timeless

Dear clandestino,

Thank you very much for this information. I just wanted to add something....

Many in North America see Al jazeera news the same way the Arabs view CNN, a huge propaganda machine. However, if this is the case why have Al jazeera journalists experienced expulsion, imprisonment, even bombs while reporting in the Arab world. See attached article that claims this.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/iraq/players/aljazeera.html

Could it be that Al jazeera instead will help mold and shape the future of the Arab world. "The media is the message". Bring the unity of the people between countries that the governments have never achieved. I am interested in Al jazeera's perspective because I think it could have a significant impact on all of us. It could provide us with a very important window to the Arab world and more importantly where the Arab world is heading. I am not saying that Al jazeera does not present propaganda, merely that I do not think it is all propaganda and that it is the perspective (what is believed by the majority of people) that is critical anyways.

Remember guys right or wrong need not apply for the job, perspective rules in this world. The Arab perspective is now face to face with North American values and perspective, without any breathing room. A lot of differences there that many in North America are not seeing and a big stick will not necessarily bridge the rift. I think many North Americans just assume our values and perspective will be embraced with open arms. After all we are so great. Right! There's that darn word right again.
Many Arabs will embrace it. The big question is how many and what portion of our values and perspective will they adopt. Liking our music is one thing, adopting what we view as our critical core values is another.

Deepest Regards,
timeless

#66 · Mar 24, 2003, 14:34 · TheSeeker

When citizens of one country start pointing fingers at citizens of another country, it is then that we have been manipulated. All of the propaganda, etc., is generated for this exact point, for us to argue with each other and hate and or kill each other.

#67 · Mar 24, 2003, 15:00 · timeless

quote:
Originally posted by TheSeeker

When citizens of one country start pointing fingers at citizens of another country, it is then that we have been manipulated. All of the propaganda, etc., is generated for this exact point, for us to argue with each other and hate and or kill each other.

Dear Seeker,

Excellent comment. Yes! If this were lord of the rings we would be the guys standing around the ring arguing like a bunch of 'blithering idiots'. I get to be the dwarf [but don't toss me!

] The only solution is to burn our egos away in the fires of Mount Doom. Look for truth on a higher plane than this one.

Regards,
timeless

#68 · Mar 24, 2003, 20:04 · BDHugh

Hi Timeless.

quote:
Originally posted by timeless

Well, when a dictatorship feels threatened it often is more likely to lash out quickly than wait. It is more likely to take matters into its own hands as fast as possible before revolution is even a consideration.

Okay, I understand what you meant now. I think though that when Iraq makes a complete transformation, other Arab countries will follow and their governments will most likely try to exercise what you are saying.

#69 · Mar 26, 2003, 19:38 · Jenadots

Maybe this is a little bit catty [

], but we are getting reports that on Day 1 of Al Jezeera's English broadcast, they have already been "hacked" by American hackers. The story did make me laugh as they do try to present themselves as an unbiased source of information.

I would like to see some of their broadcasts for another point of view, but would be even more skeptical of their stories than I am of CNN or Fox News.

As to the real cost of the war -- I have no doubt that our American and British grandchildren will be paying off the war and rebuilding debts. And no doubt, that some Iraqi's will hate us for the rest of their lives. Terrorists will use this as an excuse to attack and the many Iraqi sub groups will use it as an excuse to attack each other.

Much depends on what the Iraqi National Conference is able to accomplish in the way of its proposed constitution after the war is over. Hopefully, whatever government is finally established, it will not be another dictatorship but one that will share all that oil wealth with the millions of very poor Iraqi people who have to depend on government hand-outs for food. They will need economic reform as much as they need a stable, reasonable government.

I wonder what they will want to do with Saddam's hundred or so palaces?

I hate that we are at war, but since we are, I do hope and pray that the Iraqi people come out of this better off than they were before.

#70 · Mar 26, 2003, 20:29 · timeless

Yesterday, the US embassador to Canada was giving the Canadian government (and Canadians) 'heck' for not joining the war in Iraq and told us there would be economic repercussions. Wonderful!

Actually I think this is a smoke and mirrors comment. I think the more likely senerio is that America is now realizing the future economic fall out of this war and protectionism (protecting US markets and reducing imports where ever possible) is what is going on. This will likely have a huge impact on the Canadian economy.

Even if we suffer economically because we did not join the war, I must admit after watching tonights news that I am very relieved we chose to stay out of this. It is not turning out at all as the US government 'inferred' it would. The military may have been prepared but even that I am not so sure of. Why would they start a long campaigne just before summer? War in a hot summer only adds to humanitarian problems. I think there is much more resistance than America expected, not just in Basra. Plus, the bomb that hit the market today will promise a very, very messy fight for Bagdad. The British soldiers told BBC that they feel this war will go on for many more months. This I am sure was not a surprise for some but for others it is. I think the government is now trying to prepare Americans for a much longer war. The Brits anticipate a lot of gorilla warfare.

Also I watched BBC Asia Today and got more disturbing news. A reporter interviewed a 'moderate' Islamic leader and students at the local university in Indonesia. The moderate Islamic leader used very inflamatory comments equating Bush with Gangus Khan. If this is how a moderate feels holy gees we are in for trouble. At the very least, all this talk is going to affect American business, which will be concerned for its safety. The impact of this war on world economy as well as world relations will be huge. The students were very polite and calm but also very much against this war. They felt that any county with labelled 'terrorist' groups could be next. They felt that it was up to the population of each country to liberate itself. All this will likely cause Indonesia to suffer economically a lot which will likely help radicalize things there further.

I now think the dye is set. This will not go as America wished. This will not be good for America and even worse for the people of Iraq. Each death is tragic. However, piled on top of this will be a slowed American (hence world) economy that will slow the critical rebuilding and peacekeeping of Iraq. It is a sad, sad day.

War (external or internal) brings to the surface repressed feelings. If only we took this opportunity to understand each other now that there is so much talking. Instead I fear we of this world will only inflame things, react in defense, talk past each other, to all our detriment.

timeless

#71 · Mar 27, 2003, 08:25 · Celeste

Last nite on Discovery channel a documentary "why did the events of 9/11 take place? I taped it & haven't watched it yet. You might be able to download it off the internet but I don't know.

The U.S. Embassador sounded like nothing more than some mafia 'hood' spewing threats. How dare they-- because they are fascist. I am so Glad to be Canadian. I only wish we wouldn't be this close & we should of tried to achieve independent economic status. We could have if our businessmen & politicians wouldn't have been so greedy & stupid. I know this won't be close to happening. We will be exposed to the same tactics of control. This war was a big mistake. They will fall in time but much more trouble is ahead. Time to really pray & hone your intuition in order to avoid some of what is to come. There is a large battle being waged between Good & evil & evil has got the upper hand at this pt. Pray for the increasing Omnipresent Power of the LIGHT over the darkness. Watch for the distractions that keep you from prayer & don't let it.

Celeste

#72 · Mar 27, 2003, 19:01 · Rob

On holiday, not time to read posts so please forgive me if someone has already said this but I had an idea which seems kinda important....

.....has anyone actually bothered to ask the Iraqi people what they want??

- Rob in Cusco, Peru, going to Machu Picchu tomorrow hehe

#73 · Mar 30, 2003, 06:46 · Adrian

Greetings everyone,

Considering this topic I started was about the "true cost of war", this BBC news article ironic to say the least:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/2899823.stm

Quote from the article:

The White House continues to say that troops in Iraq are making progress, but the article quotes a former intelligence official as saying the war was now a stalemate.

The article says the army is running out of cruise missiles and precision guided bombs, and that there are maintenance problems with tanks.

"The only hope is that they can hold out until reinforcements arrive," the official told the magazine.

Looks like a few billions dollars wasted on weapons of destruction, and which could have been spent on food and other humanitarian needs, has got the "allies" precisly nowhere to speak of.

This war should be stopped right now and re-thought. If this is allowed to go to the streets of Bagdhad, the consequences will be horrendous for both sides, and in particular innocent civilains, not to mention the aftermath in all manifestations elsewhere.

With best regards,

Adrian.

#74 · Mar 30, 2003, 14:01 · Kristen

Hi Adrian -

Um.... it is always good practice to never take at face value anything any media outlet of any source puts together about anything. I would not trust any report about war efforts on any side of this or any other conflict. Even if former intelligence sources (or even current ones) are quoted. All media is biased and contains "spin." In other words, the facts are not necessarily facts, and even if the sources are factual there is always an element of treating the "facts" with a slant. This is a fundamental truth of life just as death and taxes are.

The United States has been in Iraq in this latest war effort for how many days ? Do you really think that the United States has run out of weapons at this point? The US is never going to run out of weapons because the US military complex is well funded and has a stable and well greased infrastructure. It can make weapons quickly and easily. As far as mechanical problems go, tanks always have mechanical issues, as do helicopters, fighter jets or any other mechanical tool of war. This has been and always will be the case. That is why the US Army, Marines and Airforce have divisions of dedicated mechanical specialists.

My husband was an airborne army military policeman who served in Panama and Kuwait. I can't tell you how many times he has told me what "pieces of excrement" his equipment was... how machine guns jammed... how humvies were duct-taped and bubble-gummed together, how parachutes can fail... One of my cousins used to be an Army tank specialist... While in his opinion they are incredible machines, they require constant mechanical maintenance. I have a brother-in-law who is an Airforce aircraft mechanic... same story. My father was an Airforce navigator who flew refuling missions over Vietnam among other things... refuling is a delicate operation requiring mechanical integrity to work properly and sometimes things break down. Bottom line is that it just doesn't matter. If a plane, tank, machine gun or helicopter malfunction or go down, there is more where they came from. If the US looses or pulls out of war in Iraq, it will be for strategic and political reasons, not just simply because of deficient hardware.

2 cents
KB

#75 · Mar 30, 2003, 21:01 · timeless

I have an interesting website that those against the war might like. My husband found it extremely interesting. He is hugely against this war.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/

Illuding to Adrian's thoughts about Rumsfeld, one thing that really struck me from this website is that the US boys are in greens not the desert storm beige garb. Apparently they did not order enough? Now didn't they have enough time to make enough of those suits? More importantly these soldiers stick out like a sore thumb.

Wonderful!

My perspective on the costs of this war are:
(1) Worsening relations with the people (not necessarily the governments) in majority Muslim nations. It is what the Arabs believe that is important to acknowledge and it is very bad now that Al Jazerra has stated the casualities in the thousands. BBC has also been doing a lot of interviews with people in Jordan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Indonesia and it does not look good at all. 'Radicalism' has grown a lot. They claim an agreement favouring Palestine will not help much now. Mr. Rumsfelds latest comments about Syria and Iran and the potential for widening this war have really gone far to enrage Arabs even further. Syria's and Iran's governments will have a hard time controlling their population across such long borders but if they don't that's IT for America.
(2) Huge boycotts of American chains in the Muslim countries. Also American companies pulling out of these countries out of fear of retaliation and harm coming to their employees.
(3) Really disrupted economies between countries. Some small, such as Americans not buying French wine and French not buying American entertainment products. Some big, like industrial contracts between Russia and the Middle East. I suppose if America had helped bail Russia out when they first asked for aid, Russia would have sided with America but they had to find less popular countries to do business with to help their economy, namely the middle east and China. BBC interviews in Russia again show strong feelings against America and Britian.
(4) The cost of paying all the soldiers in war and much more costly the peacekeeping after. Not to mention the human cost of post tramatic stress syndrome that these soldiers (especially peacekeepers) will experience with gorilla tactics and suicide bombings.Once the Americans win this war the people interviewed in Arab nations say America and the Brits had better get out fast our suicide bombings on peacekeepers will be unprecidented. Wonderful! America has said it will not accept the UN moving in after the war. America did the work. But the UN would be the far better way to go. At least you won't have American and British peacekeepers going through absolute hell.
(5) Afganistan is still a mess with a Red Cross worker just being executed this week. The Red Cross has suspended all field operations in Afganistan. In other words nothing will be done outside the main city cores. Afganistan is still a mess and a hot bed for terrorism. So what did the Afgan war accomplish? If all this was really about terrorism why did more not be spent on Afganistan?

MY OVERWHELMING IMPRESSION:
Most of the Arab people who could contribute to instability are going to wait until after this war to see what type of government is put in place. If it is not what the majority of Iraqis want there will be brutal retaliation against America for putting in another 'moderate'.

MY BIG HOPE:
That the Iraq war finishes quickly with minimal casualities on both sides AND America and Britian move their soldiers out fast to leave Iraq to the UN.

THE MOST LIKELY POST WAR SENERIO?:
America and Britian keep their troops in after the war. Also, it looks based on most recent reports that America is erring on the side of putting another moderate in power. If so there will be more hell on earth for peacekeepers and Iraqis alike. With the potential of America starting more wars if surrounding countries seem to be supporting terrorism in Iraq or suicide bombings get bad enough. Not good with so much instability in this region.

BIG QUESTION: (Based on Rumsfeld's latest comments to Syria and Iran)
Are we in such a rush to solve the world terrorist problem (which has taken decades to develop) that we are going to throw gasoline on the whole works so we can burn it all out? I suppose this is one way of doing things. But this will cripple world economy to be sure and potentially suck larger countries like Russia into the mess.

God help us all...may cooler heads on all sides prevail,
timeless

#76 · Mar 31, 2003, 06:56 · Adrian

Greetings everyone,

Some disappointing developments coming out of the news networks.

Looks like the "allied forces" are going to have to "dig-in" for weeks and halt the advance, pending re-supplies, and another few hundred thousand more troops. This invasion has not proceeded according to plan, and looks as if it will escalate. Some people obviously did not learn the lessons of Vietnam, Panama etc.. How the allies intend to deal with the Iraqi military in their own streets is another thing again. Definite bad and dark vibes out of this.

What I found most incredible though is Colin Powell warning (threatening) Syria and Iran about their roles in terrorism. Here are the troops - peoples family members - and the Iraqi people suffering, and at huge costs of all kinds, and here they are planning the next invasions already. Libya after that no doubt.

This is being driven by dark forces, and already it is getting completely out of control as they intended. This has to be stopped! After Afghanistan and Iraq they look towards Syria, Iran and no doubt Libya.

With best regards,

Adrian.

#77 · Mar 31, 2003, 07:53 · Anonymous

before you know it, the whole world will be under one government. I suppose there are worse countries that could be in power. I certainly wouldn't want Iraq to be in our position. Or North Korea. Or China for that matter (though they'll probably obtain equal or superior power anyway if they haven't already).

#78 · Apr 01, 2003, 15:54 · bomohwkl

Bush said by disarming Saddam through invasion of Iraq and pre-emptive strike, the threat of terrorism will be diminished. I wonder how many people in the world really agree on that. Inflating people hatred particularly in middle east will lead to more terrorism. I wonder whether Bush is intelligent enough to predict this. Anyway, nowadays, terrorism is a mobile organisation.
Anyway, who bring Bush into power?

#79 · Apr 03, 2003, 11:16 · Anonymous

To be honest with you, I don't think Bush gives a flying f**k about the american people or what happens to them. He cares only about his selfish interests and motives. Don't count on him listening to the American people. Even during 9/11 I noticed a disturbing absence of emotion from him when he spoke. The flat tone in his voice, which seems to be there during his happiest days as well as his saddest, told me that he doesn't care about us. His ratings went up after this tragedy. Why? Because people believed that maybe this woke him up and that maybe he'd get us through. Did he? No. It was the American people who took care of this problem- Firemen, police officers, and hospitals, and other volunteers. What did Bush really do? He made speeches about how we were going to get the terrorists back.

Now he's using this terrorist event to justify every one of his actions. Why are we at war with Iraq? Because of the terrorists. Why did we go to war with Afghanistan? Because of the terrorists. Why are our freedoms disappearing right before our eyes? Because if we don't the terrorists will get us.

Most people in this country have protested the war. Did he listen to us? No. Instead he enacted the patriot act and set up "relocation camps" for "possible terrorists" which includes basically anyone who is against him. Bush is nothing more than a fascist fake. He's one of the presidents I dislike the most. In fact, I'd say he really is the worst "president" our country has ever seen. I wish people would wake up and stop thinking like sheep. We need a rebellion or an uprising of some kind.

Somewhere in the Constition it states that it is the duty of the American people to rise up against corruption in the government. the DUTY. Responsibility. Our government is corrupt through and through. As a patriot, I believe the time has come. What would great men such as George Washington and Abraham Lincoln say about our country today? They would not stand for it. Why should we? I propose that we have one day six months from now where NOBODY goes to work, school, or church. Do you realize how screwed our country's economy would be if this happened? It could NEVER recover. Just from ONE DAY. They would be forced to change the system. This is good because it would be done in a nonviolent way. And that's what we need.

I feel the time is now for me to make a difference. But I cannot do it alone. I've thrown out a suggestion to fix the problem with our country as of now. If anyone has a better one, please share it. The bottom line is, SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE DONE--- NOW. No more waiting. The time has come to take action.

#80 · Apr 03, 2003, 14:02 · bomohwkl

The important thing is to get the idea of silent protest across people who already protesting on the street.