#0 · Feb 26, 2003, 11:29 · LJ57

I have had three OBE experiences although one was more like a lucid dream. As much as I want to believe that I was leaving my body and exploring astral realms or just floating in the real-time zone, I still find myself questioning everything. I want to believe that these were genuine spiritual experiences but I often start thinking that maybe they were just physiological experiences. I remember reading the book Lucid Dreaming and Laberge saying that the astral body was just the brain's limited representation of the physical body. Just wondering does anyone else ever have these doubts and how do you prove to yourself that they are real projections, not just maifestations of brain activity.

#1 · Feb 26, 2003, 11:42 · quant

Of course!

What Robert Bruce suggests is to get a playing card and place it face up on an out of reach shelf.
Project and read the card, come back to the physical plane, and see if what you saw in your OBE was the same as the read card.

#2 · Feb 26, 2003, 11:51 · LJ57

Hi quant

Of the three projections I've had, I have never been able to do as I please during the experience. It seems as if I've been at the mercy of the experience. Despite the projections I've never been able to look down on my body nor have I been able to go where I want. Hopefully I will have some more successes and learn to control what happens during the projection. It would certainly be enlightening to read the playing card and validate the experience.

#3 · Feb 26, 2003, 13:00 · quant

Good luck!

#4 · Feb 26, 2003, 13:19 · monicat777

I know just through my own logic I can prove it to myself. Do you know how little is known about the human brain and its abilities??  To suggest that it is "just in my head" is an illogical suggestion because how would I know..No one can even imply that's the case. The most important thing is..look at all these people with interests in these things and all the people that have experienced these things. Since the beginning of recorded history. Could we ALL be wrong. If this is something you truely want to explore the proof will come and it may not be enough to convince anyone else..but is that your job?? to prove to all of humanity that consciousness is subjective?? If you are having these experiences it is valid because you experienced it. do i have PROOF it happened?? no....Can you prove it didn't?? NOOOO

#5 · Feb 26, 2003, 13:52 · quant

Yes but such things that are explained through science are proven, simply because they have found a logical pattern in their problem.
Psychic abilities on the other hand have not been scientifically proven, therefore stand inline for ridicule by most without an active imagination, religious beliefs, or just the simple thought that "there's something else out there".

Once science finds the link they need, things like OBE's will no longer become questionable.

#6 · Feb 26, 2003, 14:23 · monicat777

And as long as the traditional approach (scientific method) is used there won't be "proof" because you can't pull apart and name and test what you can not see or touch. but then what you can't see or touch can't be explained scientifically because science is limited in it's approach. Right???

#7 · Feb 26, 2003, 15:19 · LJ57

Thanks for all the feedback on this. As much as I would like to see science prove OBE as well as NDE, psychic phenomenon, etc., that has never been a really important issue to me. I have always been a skeptic, and for a long time, an atheist. Reading Carl Sagan's "The Demon Haunted World" really did my head in years ago. I'm just at that point in life where I would like to grow spiritually and explore and discover things such as OBE yet that persistent inner skeptic is always tugging at me. I'm always questioning experiences and beliefs I have where others usually just accept them. I guess for me it's just wanting to prove to myself that it's real.

#8 · Feb 26, 2003, 18:42 · Daniel

quote:
yet that persistent inner skeptic is always tugging at me. I'm always questioning experiences and beliefs I have where others usually just accept them. I guess for me it's just wanting to prove to myself that it's real.
I know the feeling...but hey, maybe the others are self-corrupted and choosing the more comfortable way in just believing that lastnights dream was an OBE.

You probably know that one of the biggest challenges in this field is to conciliate formal mechanical logic with multidimensional logic, this obviously require lots of tolerance towards paradoxes and ambiguities[ ;) ]

Regards,

Daniel

#9 · Feb 26, 2003, 21:43 · gerble king

My OBE experiences have been very different from my lucid dream experiences.  So distinct in fact, that I have no doubt that they are different phenomena.  It sucks that you haven't been able to control it yet (sorry I can't help to there), but you must learn to if you want to prove to yourself that is it real.  Try to read cards (as recommended above) or observe another objective scene.  For instance, when I first started having OBEs I decided to see if what I was experiencing was real or a dream. So I decided that the next time I had an OBE I would go outside with the sole purpose of finding something objective that I could then go and observe awake.  When the next OBE occurred I went straight outside repeating the purpose (find something objective) to myself over and over.  Very soon I saw two people walking up the street across from my house, one in white and the other in black, I then head straight back to my body and told myself to wake up and run outside to check my observation.  When I woke, up I ran outside and saw the people.  This convinced me that it was real.  I would like to do more test to see how accurate I am but I have had mixed results deliberately OBEing, they just happen when I am very, very tired and fall asleep on my back.  Hopefully Robert's book will help me.

#10 · Feb 26, 2003, 23:44 · goingslow

quote:
Originally posted by Daniel

I know the feeling...but hey, maybe the others are self-corrupted and choosing the more comfortable way in just believing that lastnights dream was an OBE.

You probably know that one of the biggest challenges in this field is to conciliate formal mechanical logic with multidimensional logic, this obviously require lots of tolerance towards paradoxes and ambiguities[ ;) ]

Regards,

Daniel
Daniel why dont you spit out what you're trying to say? I hate when people think they're sounding so intelligent.  When really they sound like they're talking out their butt.  Instead of trying to sound so smart how about making a little sense?

#11 · Feb 27, 2003, 00:07 · Woopaching

"but I often start thinking that maybe they were just physiological experiences."

Hmm... could it be both a spiritual and a physiological experience? As far as I can tell I have a mind (non-physical) which moves physical objects (my body) Sounds pretty psychic there. But it'd defidently a mind body connection. Why does out of body have to be so disconnected from the body? It is very much a physiological event and a spiritual event. Hmm... perhaps utilizing the full human potential in some views, and in my opinion. In Astral Dyamics it is given strong emphasis that relaxation is key along with mental focus. That means your body has a big part to do with it. Just as your mind does... don't doubt yourself... ask questions... but only if you will follow them up with a search for the answer.

Keith

#12 · Feb 27, 2003, 01:37 · Ash

healthy skepticism is, well... healthy. but let's not get carried away. remember that if you take the idea far enough then you will realize that there is absolutely nothing in this world that is provable. I mean try to prove that what you're experiencing now is not a dream. There is no way to do it, without utilizing experience from this world (which might be a dream, remember?)

I'm just saying everyone at some point needs to find a balance. Be skeptical, but also have faith in your perceptions. If you perceive something, it is real for you. It may or may not be real for other people. But if it's real for you then it has value for you.

Another question. Does it matter whether it is genuine projection or "manifestations of brain activity"? Is there evidence that a non-physical body can exist and separate from a physical body? Is it possible that the physical brain has sensory apparatus that can be used across distance, time, and dimension? Does it really matter either way?

I think the only possible answer to your question is "yes, it is all in your mind." That's where EVERYTHING is. We humans exist as perceivers, but the sad truth is that we can never know whether any of our perceptions exist, or are just perceptions. I choose to believe my perceptions have validity, if only to myself.

#13 · Feb 27, 2003, 04:31 · Daniel

quote:
Daniel why dont you spit out what you're trying to say? I hate when people think they're sounding so intelligent. When really they sound like they're talking out their butt. Instead of trying to sound so smart how about making a little sense?
Sorry, but can´t help on your hate...Funny though that your comment actually demonstrates what I ment by intolerance towards ambiguity[ :) ]

Have you heard how the truth many times is not a question of black or white but has many shades of grey between.

Anyway, to help you litle on your conceptual thinking on this issue you may want to read the following article:
http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/science/health/080800hth-behavior-culture.html

In the broadest sense, the studies -- carried out in the United States, Japan, China and Korea -- document a familiar division. Easterners, the researchers find, appear to think more "holistically," paying greater attention to context and relationship, relying more on experience-based knowledge than abstract logic and showing more tolerance for contradiction. Westerners are more "analytic" in their thinking, tending to detach objects from their context, to avoid contradictions and to rely more heavily on formal logic.

...Given a choice between two different types of philosophical argument, one based on analytical logic, devoted to resolving contradiction, the other on a dialectical approach, accepting of contradiction, Chinese subjects preferred the dialectical approach, while Americans favored the logical arguments. And Chinese subjects expressed more liking than Americans for proverbs containing a contradiction, like the Chinese saying "Too modest is half boastful." American subjects, Dr. Nisbett said, found such contradictions "rather irritating."

#14 · Feb 27, 2003, 06:43 · Klaus S

Quote: "Another question. Does it matter whether it is genuine projection or "manifestations of brain activity"? Is there evidence that a non-physical body can exist and separate from a physical body? Is it possible that the physical brain has sensory apparatus that can be used across distance, time, and dimension? Does it really matter either way?"

*******

Yes, I think it does matter. It matters regarding our view and understanding of the Universe and it matters regarding the issue of life after death.
Sometimes a "realness"-feeling is mentioned as a kind of validation of the realness of the experience. Regarding my own "OBEs" they have, in terms of "realness", felt like something in between ordinary wakefulness and lucid dreams. They do follow a certain pattern, most often I come out in the bedroom of my childhood, it's always rather dark, if I haven't enough speed I get stuck in the window glass which hurts a bit! Outside the window a lucid dream begins. I would not consider my experiences as evidence that OBEs are "real". One thing possibly of interest: Two times there have been some buzzing in my ears and these two times have felt a bit more "real", really...

Klaus S[ :o )]

#15 · Feb 27, 2003, 10:03 · monicat777

Ash you rock!

#16 · Feb 27, 2003, 12:25 · Ash

[ ;) ]
thanks monicat

#17 · Feb 27, 2003, 19:03 · Leyla

I've heard tht all OBE's are just lucid dreams.

Except that I've actually *had* lucid dreams where I was out of body.
I wake up and go, "Damn it. Just a dream."

The difference is like the difference between driving a car, and then dreaming about driving a car.

I guess that's how I know my OBE's are reality.

#18 · Feb 28, 2003, 04:36 · Frank

quote:
Originally posted by LJ57

I have had three OBE experiences although one was more like a lucid dream. As much as I want to believe that I was leaving my body and exploring astral realms or just floating in the real-time zone, I still find myself questioning everything.
Having a lucid-dream is basically the Monroe Focus 22 state, only with a reduced level of conscious awareness. Focus 22 is the first proper realm where thought-equals-direct-action. I say "proper" because, technically, this thought/action effect comes about at the Physical-to-Astral bridge-zone at mental Focus 21.

I agree wholeheartedly with Daniel in his point that one of the biggest challenges is to conciliate formal mechanical logic with multidimensional logic. This hurdle is presented by the fact that, when we project, we don't in turn develop some super-sense of conscious awareness all primed and geared for Astral use. On the contrary, the sense of conscious awareness you take with you to the Astral is the very same one you have now. All of which means you tend to behave like a fish out of water the first 10 or 20 times you project.

To help overcome this hurdle, you need to gain a fair degree of understanding about the basic nature of the Astral environment, and the different ground-rules that apply. We have to gain familiarity with these basic rules in much the same way as we do when first entering the Physical. For example, perhaps the one most basic Physical rule (we gain familiarity with rather quickly!) is that no two physical things can occupy the same physical space.

A person who could not get the hang of this basic rule would forever have difficulties. Not only would they be forever bumping into things, pursuits such as driving a car, for instance, would be nigh on impossible.

Same thing applies with Astral exploration where, without an understanding of the basic ground rules, people will keep running into difficulties.

One of the main difficulties is presented by the fact that releasing emotions within the Astral environment acts as a kind of fuel that goes to creating the circumstances that surround you. This is a *tricky* one to overcome because these circumstances can seem just as real, and equally as lifelike, as circumstances are within the Physical. So if you release a little fear (very common) you will instantly find yourself in a mildly fearful circumstance.

Problem is, finding yourself all of a sudden in a scary situation will normally have the effect of making you even more fearful. So the situation will instantly become that much more scary; which makes you more scared; so it gets that much more scary; which makes you even more scared; so it gets that much more scary; and so on, and so on.......

If that were not bad enough, there is another basic rule which says, "Your experiences and/or circumstances are primarily governed by your expectations." Therefore, if you expect to encounter demons and dragons... then demons and dragons you shall encounter.

But that's not all. There's another basic rule which says, "like instantly attracts like." So it won't only be you having these horrific experiences. Chances are, you'll be surrounded by countless others all suffering the same fate.

Such a group concensus will naturally have the effect of reinforcing your beliefs to a high degree. Bringing into play the basic rule which says, "Your ability to perceive is proportional to your willingness to believe." In other words, the more you believe the Astral is a nasty and dangerous place, the more readily you will perceive it as such.

Bearing all this in mind, you need then to be careful how you go about things... else all manner of reality fluctuations can come about. For example, it is only natural that you should question your experiences. This is a great way to make progress provided the questioning aspect comes about as a result of natural curiosity. Over years of trial and error, I found the best most productive mental state to have while within the Astral realms: is to remain emotionally neutral, while maintaining a natural air of mild curiosity.

However, if the questioning comes about as a result of Doubt, then you need to be ever mindful of the fact that any release of thoughts of Doubt - while within the Astral - will instantly lead to you experiencing circumstances that support whatever level of Doubt you are feeling.

Then, just like in my release of fear example above, finding yourself all of a sudden in a situation where your doubts are justified, will normally have the effect of making you feel even more doubtful; so your circumstances will instantly become such that your doubts are reinforced all the more; which in turn makes you doubt all the more still; and so on, and so on.......

It's unfortunate that now and again I come across a person who once managed to successfully project to the Astral and subsequently concluded that it was all some kind of brain-generated fantasy.

We had someone come onto this BBS last year who was adamant on this. From reading into where they were coming from, it was obvious the person had been projecting to the Focus 22 state while releasing feelings of doubt. Of course, this person's doubts were immediately reinforced each time to the extent where they became utterly convinced their doubts were 110% genuine. All of which then blinded this person to the facts about what had truly taken place.

As for wanting "proof" and such like. A popular idea is the one about having someone else place a playing card or some other object out of sight, and so forth. But what I would suggest is you learn to become more proficient at projection and all the proof you can handle will be fed to you by the bucketload.

Yours,
Frank