#0 · Feb 23, 2003, 15:46 · Spirit_Gurl

on february 26, Wed. 2003, there will be a mass movement. We will call all houses of congress, fax them, and tie up their phone lines. they will have to listen to us. about what? THE WAR AGAINST IRAQ. if you have enough time to make 3 phone calls or send a fax on the 26, go to //www.moveon.org

we need many people to do this, or else it will not work. we need to let those higher up know that we do NOT want this war. please do all that you can, and tell as many other people as possible. we CAN make a difference.

//www.moveon.org

#1 · Feb 23, 2003, 16:07 · naturechick89

ABSOLUTELY ill help, i was planning on going to that site after i saw it on tv but i forgot the adress and i tried to find it 4 like 15 minutes, ill spread the word

#2 · Feb 23, 2003, 16:25 · PeacefulWarrior

Count me out...I don't happen to be anti-American.

#3 · Feb 23, 2003, 16:29 · naturechick89

It is NOT anti-american, it is ant kill inocent citizens...Why killhundeds of thusands of innocent iraquiswhen saddam is the real problem? and bette yet, why riskthe lives innocent americans in teh war and in any possible payack terrorism attacks?
Bush is wa hungry and he needs to be sopped!

#4 · Feb 23, 2003, 16:43 · MJ-12

<sd

#5 · Feb 23, 2003, 18:06 · Anonymous

Iraqi citizens don't want war. Neither do we. So let's settle this with a game of chess, see who is the higher intellect.

#6 · Feb 23, 2003, 18:11 · Anonymous

Do not forget that it was the U.S. that put Saddam into power in the first place, and now we are just dealing with our mistakes (does the CIA ring a bell?).

#7 · Feb 23, 2003, 18:15 · naturechick89

i agree with enderwiggin

make it a chess game, or send some gys in that can kill sadam, any way just get rid of him, he is the problem not the iraqi people. Bush jsut really wants to go to war he noes there are other options but cooses to ignore them

#8 · Feb 23, 2003, 18:28 · Rob

"Should we wait for Saddam to finish his nuclear weapons program first?"
Chances are he already has nukes, and has had them for years. Therefore going to war is the most dangerous move your government can make. Yeah he's mad - not mad enough to nuke israel for no reason, but mad enough to detonate a nuke in a US or English city if he sees his time has come. Either that or he could just release the smallpox your govenment sold to him. Wouldn't be too hard to plant that in, say, NY.

"In other words, why kill hundreds of thousands of innocent iraquis when Saddam can do it for us."
Wake up! Our goverments have killed many more innocent Iraqis than Saddam ever has.

"Unless someone has a better idea to deal with a madman"
Yeah I have! He's 65 years old for Gods sake. He won't live much longer - he's outdone most dictators already. Admittedly wossisname from Chile - Pinochet, thats it (installed by US government) - is 85, but thats a rare exception. The life Mr Hussein leads, massively guarded, a small walking arsenal, must be pretty damn stressful. I don't think he'll last too much longer - he'll crack, or have a heart attack, or something.

But really, all this is fairly academic, though it does add weight to an already strong anti-war argument.
See, if we look at the history of regimes which have been installed by the West, they have one common, uniting, feature: they all fail to achieve the of-so-high-and-mighty goals they were set out to achieve. Eg afghanistan is already caving in to fundamentalist pressure - give it another 10 years and it'll be like the Taliban never left, except for that big oil pipeline....
Worst, many of the puppet governments fail in a spectacularly terrible and bloody fashion, sometimes even triggering genocide (eg sierra lione - while the west turned its back, chile the list goes on....). Make no mistake, this blood is all over the hands of all those who started it, who allowed it to be started, and allowed it to continue. Thats you, and me, by the way....

#9 · Feb 23, 2003, 19:19 · MJ-12

gf

#10 · Feb 23, 2003, 20:19 · Risu no Kairu

Spirit_Gurl, what do you have against this war?

You're thirteen, so, please, inform me as to how much background information you have on all of this.

See, I don't know too much about it, so, even though I may take a side, I'm not going to try and cram it down someone's throat.

And no, I'm not going to screw with the country's government, seeing as how they have lots of things to do.

And going back to your other topic, what does it matter?

#11 · Feb 23, 2003, 20:51 · Nerezza

I didn't realize the young ages of the two first posters. Keep up your vigilance and don't listen to people like me who are pessimistic and assume war will happen. I pray peace will win out, and if it does, not because we turned a blind eye or assumed Saddam would just go away. It's nice to be naive, but sooner or later, it will catch up to you.

I know of the U.S history of things concerning country building and the blood spilled. Also on how it's all my fault. Im Catholic, no one knows guilt like a Catholic[ :) ].

BTW, Im Canadian, not american.

You're living in a dream world Neo.

If I were, I would think peace possible, even likly.

For an interesting view of the coming calamity:
http://www.idleworm.com/nws/2002/11/iraq2.shtml

#12 · Feb 24, 2003, 06:46 · naturechick89

daer everyone,
i repect all of our opinions, and i thank you for sharing them ith m. seeing as i dont agree with all of you, i shouldnt have tried to prove my point so strongly and tried to make you agree with me. I am sorry for forcing what i think on yo, i am a naturally strong willed person,
thank again,

#13 · Feb 24, 2003, 07:30 · Anonymous

Nerezza-

I certainly understand where you're coming from and there was a time in which I would have agreed with your opinion, but I think the first step in finding another solution to this problem is not looking at war as an option. We could be sneaky and try to assassinate Saddam, but what would that solve? He would only be seen as a martyr, since he's pretty much the only Arab leader to stand up to the US. Kidnapping and imprisoning him would be a better option. Supposedly he has ties to Osama, so we could interrogate him. I think that instead of wars, disagreements should be settled with means of intellect such as chess or something. Why would anyone elect a leader with low intellectual capability, anyway? Yeah I know what you're all thinking- Bush. But we didn't really elect him. I don't think it was coincidence that his brother just happened to be the governer of Florida. Anyway, that's what I think. It sounds to me like the only reason that Nerezza feels we should go to war is because he/she does not see another way out of this dilemma, and I think that he/she feels it should be avoided at all costs but in this case thinks maybe it's unavoidable.

#14 · Feb 24, 2003, 07:34 · Anonymous

Arghh, Saddam is such a bastard!

#15 · Feb 24, 2003, 08:41 · Spirit_Gurl

Spirit_Gurl, what do you have against this war?
What do i have against it!? the killing, the suffering, the fact that it could turn into something bigger, the fact that there are other choices, the fact that bush is ignoring us...

You're thirteen, so, please, inform me as to how much background information you have on all of this.
yes. im thirteen. and because im ony 13, i obviously don't listen to the news or read the paper, because im 13. im a little ignorant idiot who has no right to care about the future of this country, and basically i should wait ten years until im as old as you, because then i will finally have a right to care.
WHAT KIND OF CRAP IS THIS!!!??? just because im 13 doen't mean i don't pay attention, okay? me and my mom have talked about this, i listen to the news at least once a week, i learn about it on the move on site, i mean oh my god! what gives you the right to assume that because im 13, i have no information on this whatsoever? IM NOT AS STUPID AS YOU THINK I AM. YES IM 13. THAT SHOULDN'T MATTER TO YOU.

See, I don't know too much about it, so, even though I may take a side, I'm not going to try and cram it down someone's throat.
oh right, so since you dont know anything about it, you assume i don't either?

And no, I'm not going to screw with the country's government, seeing as how they have lots of things to do.
yeah they have lots to do. such as start a war most of the world's population doesn't want, and- oh, yeah, ignore us. oh, and kill us in the process. you do realize that they could have much more to do, like stopping the greenhouse effect and do something about the environment and helping poor people. oh yeah, if they just listened to most of us, they would have alot more time on their hands.

And going back to your other topic, what does it matter?
this would seem a pretty good argument, and i do truly know that this makes sense, even though the rest of your post basically says that "tia's too young, she knows nothing." but i know that even if my particular life doesn't matter, this war does. because my life affects about 50 people, but this war will affect millions. and so if my life matters, then this war does too. i figure that some day im gonna find the answer, and when that day comes, i dont wanna look back on my life and see wasted years. therefore, i am trying to live as best i can. which includes doing my part, however small, to prevent this war.
if my life matters i do not want to waste it being depressed all the time. i want to DO stuff. so when i find out HOW I matter, and how my life and everyone else's matters, i will have good memories.
instead of finding the answers to those questions, looking back, and seeing nothing. seeing a 13 year old girl who didn't care.
true most of my friends don't watch the news or read the paper.
but you can't just come here and assume that we, as a whole, are ignorant.
we know more than you think, ok? we might not be as smart as YOU, or as politically correct as YOU, but at least we're trying to DO something. we care about the world we are getting, even if you didn't.
just stop assuming that we don't care. we care a heck of alot more then you seem to, seeing as, you "dont know much about it".

#16 · Feb 24, 2003, 09:34 · naturechick89

dido

#17 · Feb 24, 2003, 10:33 · Rob

I mailed Nerezza this, but I just though I should clarify for the sake of the rest of the board: nobody will ever be banned from posting here for expressing their opinion. To my knowledge, not one poster has been censored to date, and we have had a couple of right.....you get the idea...

Rob

#18 · Feb 24, 2003, 11:59 · Nerezza

It sounds to me like the only reason that Nerezza feels we should go to war is because he/she does not see another way out of this dilemma, and I think that he/she feels it should be avoided at all costs but in this case thinks maybe it's unavoidable.

I feel that, not all wars have been in vain. My brother could be heading to Iraq soon depending on whether Canada goes along or not. I do not want a war, true, but I can't see how in this case it can be avoided. I don't want to hear 10-20 years from now that we should of invaded Iraq but didn't. Of course the same thing goes for if we go to war when we shouldn't. It sounds like a flip a coin situation to me.

#19 · Feb 24, 2003, 12:02 · Nerezza

Inguma,

I mailed you back.

#20 · Feb 24, 2003, 15:02 · Anonymous

Mark my words, Saddam is building up a lot of karma. I have enough faith in God that I believe the karma will hit him at the benefit of the greater good, i.e. just before he attacks us with a massively destructive weapon or we hit him with a nuke. Whatever happens, we deserve it and so does he. If he hits us, we deserve it. Karma doesn't always work how people think it does. We are an extremely materialistic society- That's giving us bad karma. We're generally more arrogant than other nations- That's giving us bad karma. We force our governmental beliefs on other nations. That's giving us bad karma. I can name a lot more things. Whenever karma hits us, be it in this world or the one beyond, it will be fair, swift, and just. And there's no way to stop it, except maybe by doing good for the world.

It would be most honorable to step aside and let karma do its thing. We should not be playing the role of God. Wars have existed as far back as mankind's history has been traced. Most of them were unnecessary and evil. The conquering of the European nations for instance. I would say that this has had the biggest impact on us today. Look at how many countries are controlled by the European and American continents. Look at how similar our belief structures are to those of the British. They conquered, and now so are we. I'm not saying we'd invade and take  Iraq as a new addition to our own country, but we are spreading democracy over there and we DID set Saddam up as our puppet. How long before another one goes in and we get to bomb them again because we put an even more evil puppet in there? I know what's going on. A lot of people do not see past the "oh he has dangerous weapons and tortures his own people" aspect. There's a lot more to it. There's been a lot of conspiring from the US government. And Iraq doesn't have bones to pick with Canada over this issue, because Canada doesn't want to get involved. There is a problem with the world. That problem is that the power of leadership is in the hands of too few. As long as this is the case, there will always be conflict. There's a certain size of the governmental group needed to maintain balance of power. And this group needs unity, and must never be broken apart by trust violations, as it is with our government. Back in the days of kings, there were always wars. Nowadays it's not as bad, but it's getting there because of the significantly few people who run the world. More people should have a say in what goes on. Our own government doesn't trust itself. So many politicians are mere puppets. How can that justify a war? Our government isn't together enough to justify a cause for war in any way.

These are my observations on the issue. If I am wrong about something (i.e. if my facts are not straight), let me know. Otherwise, as they say, "you're entitled to your own stupid opinion." (I do not mean that offensively)[ :) ].

#21 · Feb 24, 2003, 19:15 · Rob

Oooh another good point - wasn't it Jesus who taught to leave revenge to God and to trust in His protection?
----
sleeeeeeppp
Rob

#22 · Feb 26, 2003, 01:46 · vesselinpeev

It's great very young people are waking up to the truth and are against violence. Keep up and improve your vigilance and understanding, dear friends!

#23 · Feb 28, 2003, 13:55 · Frank

quote:
Originally posted by vesselinpeev

It's great very young people are waking up to the truth and are against violence. Keep up and improve your vigilance and understanding, dear friends!
Yes, it's great that the youngsters are at last beginning to wake up. Because it's normally us relative oldies who are against all the violent stuff: yet the youngsters of whatever generation are ever so ready to keep pulling those triggers on behalf of whoever pays them 3-meals a day and a roof over their head.

Yours,
Frank

#24 · Feb 28, 2003, 14:16 · Anonymous

So true. It's kind of an awkward position for me. I am against violence, yet I feel that if I am living under someone else's roof, then I have to live by their rules. As for this war, i don't believe it is a just cause, even if it does resolve things with Saddam. A war like WWII I might have fought for, though. Hitler, Mussolini, and Stalin were all really horrible people that should not have gotten into power in the first place. Didn't anyone ask why and how these men came into power? Most of it was killing. "Oh, he killed our leader, I guess we have to listen to him now."

Anyway, I would fight for the safety of our country, or maybe to help another country in certain circumstances, but I wouldn't fight this war.

#25 · Mar 11, 2003, 15:46 · ICWiz

Hmm..i guess i'll put my 2 cents into this[ :D ]

The war has nothing to do with saddam's defiance of the UN. Other countries do that too. It has to do with hold power in that region.

Has anyone wondered why the russians dont want this war? Its not for world peace[ 8) ]

The russians dont want us there. They have been and are trying to get a oil pipline build in the afghanistan - chechya region. If we go to war with iraq and win, we will be in the position to stop them.

Its a Neo-Cold War struggle for power

At the moment russia is building a huge underground bunker in the mountains, The CIA estemates that it can withstand up to 15 direct nuke hits. All of that is costing about 6 billion dollar. And russian cliams they dont have alot of money.

Dunno, but i feel as if we are on the wire for WWIII

--ICWiz

#26 · Mar 13, 2003, 04:51 · Klaus S

quote:
Originally posted by EnderWiggin

It would be most honorable to step aside and let karma do its thing. We should not be playing the role of God.
This is an old discussion, isn't it.

I believe: Having a fatalistic worldview gives bad karma, passively observing while a two-year old toddler falls into the roaring ocean (presumably paying off his bad karma..) also gives very bad karma.

What is meant with "loving your neighbour"? Only loving those with nice karmas? Only feeling a melancholic kind of tenderness towards them if they have a bad karma since coupling love with spontaneous actions would "interfere with karmic justice"?

No. The help that is given to those with bad karmas helps them to "pay off" their bad karmas in a much better way than the old "an eye for an eye" it might awaken something in their hearts, trust, confidence, hope, joy, thankfulness, yes possibly even INSIGHT. And these thing reduces karma in a supreme way.

Klaus S