#0 · Dec 04, 2002, 20:17 · asstray85
Heres some sites where you can start learning about it more...
http://fusionanomaly.net/dmt.html
http://www.rickstrassman.com/dmt/index.html
http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/dmt/dmt.shtml -Tons of info
http://www.brainmachines.com/dmtv2.html
http://peyote.com/jonstef/dmt.htm
Theres 2 main types of dmt theres nn-dmt and theres 5-MeO-DMT. You have to do research to disifer the differences. I am unsure.
I am not completely knowlegable of the drug, but if people can use these resources, and mabye get a working extraction plan off the internet.
http://www.spiritplants.com/articles/DMT.htm
theres a site with some extraction info. Seems complicated but it might not be what we need. I read that 5-MeO-DMT can be bought off the internet because it is less severe as far as psychadelic from nn-dmt usually called just dmt, but again i am still unsure. If everyone could find some helpful info about this drug and how to obtain or extract it, add to the topic, i have a feeling this is gonna be a big one.
and if there is no luck i found this site which is supposed to naturally increase dtm levels in your body.
http://www.acutcmdetox.com/tryptophan2.html
Get this information out, the goal is to find out where dmt can be purchased or the best ways for extraction.
-Steve
#1 · Dec 05, 2002, 00:05 · astralmaster
Have you ever hear of salvia Divinorum?
David
#2 · Dec 05, 2002, 00:45 · Tom
#3 · Dec 05, 2002, 08:37 · Helmut
believe me, no drug having an impact on the psyche is completly harmless. How could it be! The argument that shamans have used drugs for generation, doesn`t hold. If you are a shamans apprentice, you get your experience in a controlled setting with guidance. If you use drugs on your own, it`s like riding a race car without training, you may feel great on a salt lake, but any curve will certainly end the pleasure.
Any psychotropic drug, if used for a while, will imbalance the nervous system. The other danger comes from going into realms, you are not prepared for. If you use your own energy to go, you can compete as this is YOUR level. If a drug rocket takes you to the DEITY level, you`ll be lost.
I am not moralizing, believe me. I had some experience with LSD 30 years back, and it`s just not worth the price you have to pay.
Helmut.
PER ADURA AD ASTRA as Robert would say.
#4 · Dec 05, 2002, 08:38 · Jeff_Mash
quote:Yeah? Well my body also produces methane but you won't see me putting anymore of that inside of it.
Originally posted by asstray85:
DMT is a drug that is completely harmless. Our body produces the chemical and it stimulates to pineal gland
Keep smiling,
Jeff Mash
MyJokeMail.com - Jokes and Humor
http://myjokemail.com
#5 · Dec 05, 2002, 11:43 · Rolling Bear
Blessings,
Dave
"Each whole is simultaneously a part, a whole/part, a holon. And reality is composed, not of things nor processes nor wholes nor parts, but of whole/parts, holons." --Ken Wilber
#6 · Dec 05, 2002, 15:42 · Frank
Yours,
Frank
#7 · Dec 05, 2002, 15:53 · Tom
#8 · Dec 05, 2002, 15:56 · Rolling Bear
quote:That's an extreme oversimplification, Frank. These plants were given us as learning tools, and there is good reason to believe (see McKenna) some of them were responsible for the development of human language. Humans have a very long history of using psilcybin, as is evidenced by a brain receptor into which psilocin fits like a key in a lock, showing that humans used them for perhaps many thousands of years. The plants are our friends and spirit-companions. The trick is to learn what they have to teach, but not become dependent on them for the experience. If used properly, they are no short-cut, but simply one means toward achieving an end. As with mental control, that comes in time with any method; and no need to worry about becoming addicted to psychedelics, for they are non-addicting, generally non-habit-forming, and most users naturally take them infrequently, eventually learning enough through such use that they no longer need to take them. This can even happen after one powerful experience.
Originally posted by Frank:
Anyone trying to find a short-cut through drugs please forget. You can't retain or keep the requisite degree of mental control. It's next to impossible with people who are completely sober.
#9 · Dec 05, 2002, 16:17 · asstray85
-Steve
#10 · Dec 05, 2002, 16:58 · PeacefulWarrior
The following is an expereince by an unknown male subject (taken from www.erowid.org )
SOME INFO:
DOSE : smoked 5-MeO-DMT (powder / crystals)
BODY WEIGHT : 190 lb
For a period of approximately 6 weeks, I experimented rather frequently with 5MEO (three or four times a week). Typical doses were in the 5 to 10 mg range, and we would do this perhaps 3 times over the course of an evening using a small glass pipe.
This substance produces a short lasting but extraordinarily intense psychedelic experience. In addition to mental effects which are roughly comparable to the peak of a double digit acid experience, the drug also produces indescribably euphoric physical sensations comparable to orgasm.
The onset of effects is almost instantaneous and the ensuing rush so intense that no matter how many times one has used the substance the first few seconds after inhalation are invariably accompanied by a degree of shock and fear. The drug's principle effects are intensely euphoric and last in general 5 to 10 minutes. During this period it seems as though one has no direct contact with the outside world; as though all stimuli to the brain are emanating from within rather than through the senses. This period of intoxication, which we came to refer to as 'the warp', is sometimes followed by a period which may last as long as half an hour during which the user feels effects quite similar to a large dose of LSD.
At the conclusion of this approximate 6 week period, interest in the drug waned and there was no further experimentation. Starting from perhaps a month afterwards, both myself and my partner in experimentation experienced a variety of disturbing neurological symptoms, such as twitches and occasional feelings of pins and needles and numbness of the extremities.
Occasional disturbances of memory were also noticed. These symptoms continued with decreasing intensity for the better part of a year after the period of experimentation, at which point such symptoms ceased to occur. It was at this time that we noticed, week by week, a sense of increased mental clarity and proficiency. During this same period it became clear to us that our performance at work (software development) had been substandard in the months that followed the period of experimentation. It occurred to us both that the period of chronic experimenation with 5MEO, however enjoyable, seemed to have caused temporary but significant damage to our brains, both cognitively and neurologically. A chilling reminder that substances such as 5MEO are indeed RESEARCH CHEMICALS for which safe levels of use are yet undetermined.
In light of my experience with 5MEO, I urge caution to anyone considering experimentaion with the drug and strongly suggest that such experiments be of a limited nature.
Exp Year: 2000 ID: 5845
Added: Mar 25, 2001 Views: 3540
fides quaerens intellectum
#11 · Dec 05, 2002, 18:25 · Rolling Bear
quote:Peaceful, you don't use very friendly language for someone with such a user name; your words about McKenna seem unkind and provocative, and further, they imply he used the drug crack, which seems doubtful (although perhaps he experimented with it, I don't know). I do agree that caution is the watchword, but I feel it should be such with any psychic trigger or experience. The DMT experience is overwhelming, which is why I recommend the counsel of our coprophilic plant-friends instead. Your assertion that "the doors of perception are opened but not cleansed" is inaccurate; it implies the trigger is the experience, while in truth, the chemicals only lead you to the door, whether they come from a smoke, a plant, or your pineal gland. Certainly, external triggers are not necessary, and it gives one a feeling of immense satisfaction to no longer require them for non-physical exploration, but they can be useful learning tools, and should be recognized as such in a society genuinely interested in knowledge, wisdom, and love.
Originally posted by PeacefulWarrior:
Terrence McKenna was a crackhead...and trust me, you WILL NEVER experience, with DMT or any other drug, the true meaning of power and freedom in the out of body state...NEVER! The doors of perception are flown open but not cleansed...In light of my experience with 5MEO, I urge caution to anyone considering experimentaion with the drug and strongly suggest that such experiments be of a limited nature.
Blessings,
Dave
"Each whole is simultaneously a part, a whole/part, a holon. And reality is composed, not of things nor processes nor wholes nor parts, but of whole/parts, holons." --Ken Wilber
#12 · Dec 05, 2002, 18:50 · Jeff_Mash
quote:hey there Steve...
Originally posted by asstray85:
I agree bear. If you are going to reply to this topic, dont reply on impulse and express your knowlege of drugs, because dmt is different. It is naturally secreted during meditiation, therefor if you take it externally its equivelent to intense meditation.
I guess my problem with that outlook is the fact that you achieve a certain state without the discipline which goes along with it.
In other words, through meditation, one learns to listen to their thoughts and their inner voice. As they go deeper and deeper, they may start to experience vivid images, sounds, and other phenomenon. Now, if a person were simply able to smoke/swallow something which would take them right to the vivid images or sounds, this bypasses all the inner discipline that was normally needed to get there.
"So what? If I can get from point A to point C without going to point B, how is that bad?"
I'm not really saying it's bad, persay. To each his own. However, from my own experience, knowing that I had to work hard to achieve this meditative state on my own has allowed me to grow stronger as a spiritually minded person. There is no doubt in my mind that I have made this progress through sheer determination. If I were to have smoked/swallowed something, then there would always be that thought in the back of my mind that this 'substance' contributed to my experience and not me myself.
People will also say, "But taking this drug is no different than buying a hemi-sync tape. Both are external 'tools' used to achieve the same goal."
My only contention with that is that hemi-sync still utilizes a lot of mental control and focus. A lot of these tapes guide a person through the process which one must focus on in order to achieve the right F-level. It has nothing to do with stimulating or introducing chemicals into the body, regardless of what is produced naturally.
Anyway, I'm not perfect. This is just my two cents.
Keep smiling,
Jeff Mash
MyJokeMail.com - Jokes and Humor
http://myjokemail.com
#13 · Dec 05, 2002, 19:54 · James S
AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGNNNNNNNNNNMMBLAH!!!!!!!!!!
Yes some drugs are very useful to us. If I didn't squirt some unmpronounceable chemical up my nose at the first wiff of Spring, I'd sneeze my head off. If it wasn't for good old Warfrin my father would likely be dead. I'm also familiar with the effects of dope and LSD having used it a bit myself for fun, so I'm not speaking as a unmarried marriage councellor on psychoactive drugs.
To expand on a point of Jeff's:
quote:Maybe there was something at point B that you really needed to learn before going on to point C. If your purpose for such drugs is just a quick fix to achieveing a result then fine. If your purpose for achieving that result is anything to do with spiritual growth, then you've just missed the point alltogether. The journey is often more important than the destination.
"So what? If I can get from point A to point C without going to point B, how is that bad?"
People have commented about the need for learning in traditional ways when there is the internet with its incredible wealth of information readily available. Trouble is gaining quick access to knowledge does not bring with it the wisdom needed to use such knowledge to full benefit.
As to the fact that such drugs are often used on shamanic practices, well...give a hammer and chisel to a trained and skilled sculpter and you'll have a work of art. Give that hammer & chisel to someone completely untrained and you'll probably have a big mess and a lot of bloody band-aids.
James.
#14 · Dec 05, 2002, 20:16 · coral1
My experience with DMT(30 years ago) was similar to what Peaceful described.I smoked it in crysal form for a couple of months:strictly for the rush which is overwhelming.I stopped using it after noticing memory loss,inability to concentrate and spooky times when my brain just sort of drifted off.Hey lets face it: something that powerful has got to be bad for you!If anyone feels the need to open the doors of perception with chemicals, do like Bear says and stick with the plants.It `s a gentler and safer road.I downshifted to the slow lane a long time ago and while I miss gettin rocketed into another dimension at least I can enjoy the scenery along the way.
Happy Trails
coral1
#15 · Dec 06, 2002, 02:34 · Daniel
So what did he knew about multidimensionality? I believe his 'back to the caves' theory is irresponsible hedonistic entertainment sustained by rethoric whitout any real contribution to the evolution of consciousness. Or what did he meant by: 'life´s purpose is a big party'? He also theorized that the world ends in 2012 and that mushrooms are actually alien inteligence...
-Daniel
#16 · Dec 06, 2002, 09:32 · Tom
#17 · Dec 06, 2002, 09:50 · Rolling Bear
quote:Daniel, you should read the source, not some distorted reductionist attack on McKenna that probably comes from a debunker's webiste; each of the ideas you mentioned has been mangled or taken out of context. Are you a professional disinformationist?
Originally posted by Daniel:
When asked, Terence McKenna said to have had only ONE lucid dream (no OBEs) in his life.
So what did he knew about multidimensionality? I believe his 'back to the caves' theory is irresponsible hedonistic entertainment sustained by rethoric whitout any real contribution to the evolution of consciousness. Or what did he meant by: 'life´s purpose is a big party'? He also theorized that the world ends in 2012 and that mushrooms are actually alien inteligence...
McKenna had no "back to the caves" theory. Rather, he believed that our modern yearnings toward neo-tribalism are a nostalgic longing for the timeless golden age of prehistory, during which humans regularly took part in mushroom ceremonies, and lived in an eternal, loving, spontaneous, orgiastic moment. He never theorized the world would end in 2012; rather, his Timewave software seems to indicate that in 2012 -- along with the beginning of the next Mayan calendar -- there will be a single, defining moment, perhaps the anomaly of anomalies, which he calls the "eschaton", or end of time. This in no way means the world ends, merely that it ends as we know it. It could be that time travel is dicovered, for instance, which would have profound effects on group awareness. McKenna believed that all of history was a psychic resonance of this central moment. Seems like an interesting idea, and you display a hidebound nature by so casually dismissing it.
Also, McKenna had many, many astral experiences; that he only admits to one lucid dream and one OBE (you say) means nothing. I've read his experiences, and understand that he indeed traveled interdimensionally on a regular basis. His own technique was more akin to phasing. So what?
There are compelling reasons to believe that mushrooms are "alien" in nature and intelligence. For one thing, they give us an experience of something so completely other that, once you've taken them a few times, you understand what McKenna and others meant by this assertion. Also, the spores are capable of traveling through space, and conceivably arrived on our planet from somewhere else.
Besides, why should there be anything wrong with him making such claims? You're really one to talk -- someone who hangs out on a bbs devoted to astral travel. Is that any less "strange" or "unbelievable" than the idea of aliens, or an eschaton?
You have no understanding of Mckenna's theories, and I suggest you either read his works or avoid discussing them
"Each whole is simultaneously a part, a whole/part, a holon. And reality is composed, not of things nor processes nor wholes nor parts, but of whole/parts, holons." --Ken Wilber
#18 · Dec 06, 2002, 09:52 · Frank
quote:Yep, you can't get things too simple where I'm concerned.
Originally posted by Rolling Bear:
That's an extreme oversimplification, Frank.
Funny, I was reading a story today about how, decades ago, NASA discovered pens were useless in space. So, to solve the problem, they hired Anderson Consulting. It took them ten years and twelve million dollars to come up with a solution. They devised a pen which worked at zero gravity; upside down; under water; and on practically any surface: in temps ranging from below freezing to around 100 degs C.
At the same time the Russians were beginning their own space program and had the same "useless pen" problem. They solved it by using a pencil.
Yours,
Frank
#19 · Dec 06, 2002, 11:08 · Rolling Bear
quote:Frank, you imply that "simple" is always better. Is that so? And if so, why?
Originally posted by Frank:
Yep, you can't get things too simple where I'm concerned.
quote:Your "pencil" metaphor is inapplicable to the topic under discussion, which is: are so-called "external" triggers, such as some psychotropic agents, useful in the pursuit of non-physical exploration? Or are so-called "natural" induction methods by definition preferable?
Originally posted by Frank:
...NASA discovered pens were useless in space. ...It took them ten years and twelve million dollars to come up with a solution. ...At the same time the Russians were beginning their own space program and had the same "useless pen" problem. They solved it by using a pencil.
You may be as simple as you wish, but please try to address the topic at hand.
"Each whole is simultaneously a part, a whole/part, a holon. And reality is composed, not of things nor processes nor wholes nor parts, but of whole/parts, holons." --Ken Wilber
#20 · Dec 06, 2002, 18:51 · Daniel
quote:Out of context? Next, you´ll say to not take McKenna's ideas so literally because what he realy ment...
Daniel, you should read the source, not some distorted reductionist attack on McKenna that probably comes from a debunker's webiste; each of the ideas you mentioned has been mangled or taken out of context. Are you a professional disinformationist?
Unfortunately there was a time that I ( in my ingenuity) read McKennas books. So, the ideas that I mentioned are mine and in my limited life understanding I just can´t take McKennas work seriously. Take no offence but I will simply quote your sentence to illustrate the reason for this.
quote:btw, who´s modern yearnings? And the rest, what does it all mean? Or is it just romantic new age poetry?
Rather, he believed that our modern yearnings toward neo-tribalism are a nostalgic longing for the timeless golden age of prehistory, during which humans regularly took part in mushroom ceremonies, and lived in an eternal, loving, spontaneous, orgiastic moment.
#21 · Dec 06, 2002, 18:59 · asstray85
-Steve
#22 · Dec 06, 2002, 20:05 · coral1
The bad cognitive side effects I experienced came from taking large doses of a pure drug: way more than the brain produces during meditation.It `s the chemical overload that produces the result.
Anyway I wish you success with your explorations.Maybe you could find someone to act as your guide.It `s reassuring to have somebody there who`s done these things before.As for cooking up your own internet potion take care. Best to give the first dose to the cat or the dog. If you gotta scape them off the ceiling you`ll know your on the right track!
Happy Trails
coral1
#23 · Dec 06, 2002, 20:05 · SiVA
#24 · Dec 06, 2002, 21:13 · Tisha
Where do I fit in? Both "sides" actually, having "been there." I really do see. I'm taking the time here now to explain why most of you should not touch the stuff . . . not now, at least.
Native tribespeople ingested mushrooms and other plants for spiritual guidance/change. They didn't hide out in their mud huts and tipis and secretly experiment alone with plants that were banned by their communities. Rather, they saw the plants as actual beings, and "communicated" or "shared their being" with them under the watchful eyes of skilled medicine men/women, as part of serious shamanic-type training. This training "changed" them, and the community welcomed this change as important and necessary.
What I'm trying to say here is that this issue needs to be viewed in its CONTEXT. Think of the way tribespeople lived their lives, the way they viewed reality. Compare and contrast this to your ordinary modern life and the way YOU AND YOUR COMMUNITY live and experience reality. Big difference, eh?
However, if my ramblings leave you un-moved, and you feel you MUST attempt a drug-induced psychedelic experience, please avoid the man-made drugs and try mushrooms instead. Mushrooms really are intelligent, alien, happy (even goofy) beings who will teach you many lessons, most of which you never expected or even felt you wanted. These lessons might cause you much suffering . . . but then again you asked for it, right?
Because you see . . . please never let go of the Truth that wherever you go, THERE YOU ARE. You, with all your psychic BAGGAGE. Mushrooms, or any other psychedelic drug, won't make you spiritual. To the contrary: they will simply turn on the amplifier and big screen for you and THERE IT ALL WILL BE IN SCREAMING TECHNICOLOR for you to deal with.
Which can be a good lesson sometimes. Sometimes you need that. It took a serious miscalculation (I won't say overdose) of mushrooms for me to "get" this lesson many many many moons ago. I pressed on with my experimentation because I felt the mushrooms were important to my spiritual growth. They were . . . not for the psychedelic experiences themselves, but for the hard, unexpected lessons that came from using them.
Now I don't touch any drug that doesn't come from a pharmacy. I know that i I can reach my mental/spiritual objectives without chemical interference. Nowadays, when I get a spiritual "lesson" it is given to me at the level that I can actually take. I like that.
Tisha
"As Above, So Below"
#25 · Dec 07, 2002, 09:54 · Jeff_Mash
Keep smiling,
Jeff Mash
MyJokeMail.com - Jokes and Humor
http://myjokemail.com
#26 · Dec 08, 2002, 19:18 · PeacefulWarrior
You know, it's hard to get under my skin, but you have officially succeeded. Please never mis-quote me again. If you don't know, the acronym JK stands for "just kidding", that is what I wrote after I jokingly called McKenna a "crackhead". While Imight have been over doing it a little by calling him that, when you quote me and then leave out the other part it simply makes me look ignorant and mean....and then you took it further by stating, in your own words, that I had done exactly that...
TO make things worse, in your quote you also make it sound like I used DMT, and from my postyou can see that I was quoting someone else.
Please don't let your passion for illegal drugs cloud your mind so much that you twist other peoples words.
fides quaerens intellectum
#27 · Dec 08, 2002, 23:22 · Rolling Bear
"Each whole is simultaneously a part, a whole/part, a holon. And reality is composed, not of things nor processes nor wholes nor parts, but of whole/parts, holons." --Ken Wilber
#28 · Dec 09, 2002, 08:53 · Jacara
Regardless of what you might know on this or other topics, your behavior makes it hard to take you seriously.
#29 · Dec 09, 2002, 09:04 · PeacefulWarrior
First of all, I apologize for being contentious as it never acheives anything, however I stand by the fact that you misquoted me. Secondly, I did add a reference to the quote from erowid that I posted.
Just for your information, I am not spitting out disinformation. I have used psylocibin a few times and I must admit that this plant based psychoactive substance did actually teach me something: not to abuse drugs.
You would be lying to yourself to say that you are not passionate about some of these chemicals:
"Asstray, DMT and beta-carboline compounds (such as in Syrian rue and passionflower) can indeed be useful tools when used in the proper safe, comfortable set and setting, and with the help of experienced human guides. When combined (as in ayahuasca), the DMT and beta-carboline containing plants can produce amazing results..."
or
"There are compelling reasons to believe that mushrooms are "alien" in nature and intelligence. For one thing, they give us an experience of something so completely other that, once you've taken them a few times, you understand what McKenna and others meant by this assertion."
I think there is something to be said for McKennas work, but no one doubts who was passionate about "drugs"...and you seem to know quite a lot about him and you state yourself that you agree with much of what he claimed.
I think your ideas are interesting...but as you can see, most of the people in here are more interested in more self-sufficient means to gain transcendental experiences.
-Daniel
fides quaerens intellectum
#30 · Dec 09, 2002, 09:36 · Frank
I suppose, ultimately, the point that stands out in my mind (as the analogy of the pen demonstrates) intaking potentially harmful substances... not only that, many of these substances are highly illegal class-A drugs... to induce astral projection is, to my way of thinking, using the proverbial sledgehammer to crack a nut.
Also, I happened to be reading a report the other week which gave the official figure of 3.5 million people in the UK (pop. 59 million) who regularly take hard, i.e. class A drugs. I suspect the true figure is even higher.
It's nice to dream of some rosy picture of Shamans in days of old; or talking about taking these susbtances only where they are legal (someone tell me a place any sane person would want to live where hard drugs are legal) and taken in the company of responsible, knowledgeable people. But there is no such reality.
The hard fact of the matter is these substances are dangerously addictive and can have disastrous consequences. Consider that well over half of all street-crime and burglary in the UK is committed by addicts stealing money for their next fix. Which is just one example of the destruction and devastation they bring to people.
Yours,
Frank
#31 · Dec 09, 2002, 10:07 · Rolling Bear
quote:Why is it my problem if I didn't understand him? Since when is the burden of comprehension entirely the reader's? If this were universally the case, then incomprehensibility would be the norm for both writing and reading, and no one would understand anything. No, Jacara, PW was not communicating well. Perhaps by the arcane standards of some slang-talking Internet in-group, of which you seem to be a member, but not by what normally passes for written conversation among a courteous, serious group.
Originally posted by Jacara:
I[/i[ understood what PeacefulWarrior meant when he put "JK" after his statement, he meant "ha ha, not literally of course" - if you didn't understand that it's your problem. I noticed right away that you edited the "JK" out when you quoted him, then accused him of meaning it literally. Now that you know he was kidding, I would've thought you might want to apologise, but you just ignore it.
Regardless of what you might know on this or other topics, your behavior makes it hard to take you seriously.
Furthermore, I don't believe PW when he says he was "just kidding." If so, why did he mount in the first place what seems to be a nasty ad hominem attack on McKenna? And if he wanted me to know that he hasn't used DMT, then why did he discuss DMT use in the very sentence in which he admits to using and studying psychedlics? Another thing: Where were the quotation marks and reference? Without attribution, we can only assume PW is speaking of his own experiences.
I see that he has made what amount to slanderous remarks. He accuses me of lying to myself about not possessing a "passion for drugs." Not only did I repeatedly state that my interests lie with plants -- not drugs -- but I pointed out to him that my interest in the matter is one of considering plant-aids impartially instead of with the typical witch-burning mentality so prevalent in a society conditioned to accept the legislation of consciousness.
Finally, I care not whether you take me seriously; you will dispense your opinions as is your whim, and that is of little concern to me. As to PW's contention that I shouldn't air my thoughts in an environment stacked against them, I find this dangerously totalitarian and conformist, and note that the belief of a majority does not by default equal a correct belief.
"Each whole is simultaneously a part, a whole/part, a holon. And reality is composed, not of things nor processes nor wholes nor parts, but of whole/parts, holons." --Ken Wilber
#32 · Dec 09, 2002, 10:20 · Rolling Bear
quote:Frank, do your homework before you speak. There is no "fact" that psychotropic drugs are addictive. The fact is that they are the least addictive of all known drugs and plants; in fact, they are completely non-addicting. Mostly, too, they aren't even habit-forming. Sugar, coffee, tea, alcohol, refined cocaine products, refined and synthetic opiates -- these are the substances to pay attention to if addiction is your concern. Regarding psychotropics, shamanic practitioners tend to use them only very infrequently, as religious sacraments, and in ritual settings. Furthermore, some psychedelics are physically safer than aspirin: pure LSD-25, for example. As references for the above statements I cite Wasson, Lilly, Weil, Grof, Tart, Ring, Krippner, Bakalar & Grimspoon, and McKenna. Several of these individuals hold Ph.Ds in their respective fields, and are experts whereof they speak. Please do not pontificate on the subject of the sacramental and shamanic use of psychotropics before you have thoroughly explored the issue.
Originally posted by Frank:
The hard fact of the matter is these substances are dangerously addictive and can have disastrous consequences. Consider that well over half of all street-crime and burglary in the UK is committed by addicts stealing money for their next fix. Which is just one example of the destruction and devastation they bring to people.
"Each whole is simultaneously a part, a whole/part, a holon. And reality is composed, not of things nor processes nor wholes nor parts, but of whole/parts, holons." --Ken Wilber
#33 · Dec 09, 2002, 13:55 · Tisha
Perhaps we could create a Myths and Facts sheet for the website, or provide an educational link. The "drug topic" comes up often on this site and I'd hate to go round and round on this issue with the newcomers every 3 months . . .
Tisha
"As Above, So Below"
#34 · Dec 09, 2002, 14:00 · Tom
#35 · Dec 09, 2002, 14:32 · asstray85
I usually smoke marijuana on a regular basis and its the only drug ive ever used and i notice that if i dont smoke for a week or so i start having extremely vivid dreams where i feel like i just smoked a hella lot. Even after the dream ends i wake up feeling high. Ive read that it is common but my judgement tells me it is the thc being brought back into my blood stream while i burn fat in my sleep. Since thc attatches to fat cells that is the only reasonable conclusion to why that might happen.
-Steve
#36 · Dec 09, 2002, 14:58 · Tom
#37 · Dec 09, 2002, 15:55 · Rolling Bear
quote:Fascinating, Tom. I too have had tremendously powerful dream-psychedelic experiences, which is one of the things that convinced me the experience is "in me", not in a drug or plant -- the drug is just a trigger. One theory about how LSD affects us says that the chemical leaves the system within about fifteen minutes, having triggered our brain's own DMT. I think that, as Steve suggests, actions of the pineal gland may be one of the keys linking dreaming, OBEs, and psychedelic experiences of various sorts. Years ago I had a dream-psychedelic experience not unlike the one you've mentioned: I dreamed I was in the Sonoran desert eating peyote, and Mescalito came hopping up to me. He said, "I am the original ancient alien hippy, and I bring you this gift." With that, he bestowed on me a strange instrument that was rather like an accordian, but with more facets; it operated directly on the energy of my chakras, translating it into exquisite music more comlex than any earthly orchestra could play. I awoke, realizing I'd been given a dream of power...a shamanic dream. Yet at that time I'd never eaten peyote!
Originally posted by Tom:
That still does not explain the really interesting LSD experience I dreamed about having before I'd even ever been drunk in waking life. It was better than any actual drug could have been and I felt really good for a few days. Actual drugs would have been easier, but dreaming about being high did not have the same sorts of side effects.
"Each whole is simultaneously a part, a whole/part, a holon. And reality is composed, not of things nor processes nor wholes nor parts, but of whole/parts, holons." --Ken Wilber
#38 · Dec 09, 2002, 16:10 · Frank
quote:Problem is, Tisha, we are talking here about psychotropic drugs and psychotropic plants. The two are *very* different. It may well be that plants containing psychotropic agents would be non-addictive. They'd more than likely make you very sick after the first few leaves and branch.
Originally posted by Tisha:
I must concur with Rolling Bear on the non-addicting nature of the plants being discussed. I don't, however, concur with the crankiness of some of these posts. What a waste of energy! Everyone hold hands, take a deep cleansing breath . . . . there.
But to quote Dave, he said: "There is no "fact" that psychotropic drugs are addictive."
The unfortunate fact is that psychotropic drugs are highly addictive. Not only that, given incorrect doseage they can be potentially fatal. Hence the reason why all psychotropic drugs are strictly controlled world-wide.
Dave further went on to say, and I quote, "The fact is that they are the least addictive of all known drugs and plants; in fact, they are completely non-addicting."
Again, I ask are we talking here about psychotropic drugs or merely plants that contain psychotropic agents?
Yours,
Frank
#39 · Dec 09, 2002, 16:27 · Tom
#40 · Dec 09, 2002, 17:05 · Rolling Bear
TOM, I couldn't agree more with your excellent point. I believe the Church of the Tree of Life has made some significant advances into this area (proper use), and of course there are many native traditions, but mostly in our society there is such a gulf between the spiritualist and drug communities that little meaningful dialogue ever takes place. The spiritualists tend toward Emerson's notion of "doing it without wine," whereas the drug and plant users often feel that, "if it ain't illegal, it don't work." Extremism on both sides, fueled by the propogandists running our "war on drugs." They couldn't be happier that we have such splits, or that we argue about these subjects. Their agenda is to control us through division and fear.
If used correctly, in the proper setting, with guidance, preparation, and the support of the local community, many psychotropic plants and drugs are nothing to fear, and have much to teach us about spirit, no-time, love, and the interconnectedness of life. Those of us who know are aware that the experiences tend to be so powerful that they take time to be integrated, and leave little desire for immediate repetition.
"Each whole is simultaneously a part, a whole/part, a holon. And reality is composed, not of things nor processes nor wholes nor parts, but of whole/parts, holons." --Ken Wilber
#41 · Dec 09, 2002, 18:18 · Tisha
#42 · Dec 09, 2002, 19:46 · Tom
#43 · Dec 10, 2002, 00:15 · PeacefulWarrior
I just want to say one last thing to you regarding this topic. First of all, I didn't mean to come off the way you thought I did. I meant the whole "crackhead" thing to be taken lightly. Obviously you took it very seriously, and I apologize that I didn't realize how serious you take this topic.
Second, while psychotropic plants can indeed be fascinating in their own right, I concur with the cliche that they are "a dead end". Study, meditation and prayer are the only true ways to open the doors to truth. As I admitted earlier, I have studied and expiremented with plant based ethogens and I declare that lucid dreaming and astral projection are SO MUCH more fun and enlightening than any of the experiences I had with mushrooms or LSD. In fact, I would go as far as to say that psychoactive drugs put me in the lower astral and the main thing they taught me was to stay away from them.
In conclusion, I have no beef with you. Please don't think I was or am personally attacking you. You are obviously an intelligent and informed person, and the only thing that has upset me is your highly defensive online personality.
Oh, and by the way, at least you know what "JK" stands for...and I was familiar with this acronym long before I used the net, it's really fairly common.
fides quaerens intellectum
#44 · Dec 10, 2002, 04:03 · alivie
Everyone is different so there is no correct or incorrect way to gain access to higher realms, its just what works for the individual.
I also do not beleive that some of these substances are illegal because they are dangerous to us, the governments that ban these substances don't want the population finding too much out so ban them under the pretence that they are doing us a favour protecting us from these 'harmful' drugs, allowing drugs like alcohol to remain legal.
Find your own path!
#45 · Dec 10, 2002, 06:18 · Rolling Bear
May we agree to disagree about the use of certain drugs/plants as psychic triggers? For I believe that, used properly, they have much to teach us and can take us a long way. I agree that it is a good thing to learn to "do it" without them, but I also think that there's nothing wrong (aside from issues of legality) with continuing to use the plants all one's life in the appropriate social/religious context, as with ayahuasco or virola snuff among the Amazonian Indians, or peyote in the Native American Church, or mushrooms by Mexican shamans. I believe that the levels one may achieve with these methods may be every bit as profound as with means such as meditation, and that neither method is 'better" or "worse"; however, I do believe that it's very practical to learn to do it without external tiggers, simply because this frees one up from having to score, worry about the cops, dosages, etc. Both methods have benefits and drawbacks to my mind. So...may we agree to disagree?
Blessings,
Dave
"Each whole is simultaneously a part, a whole/part, a holon. And reality is composed, not of things nor processes nor wholes nor parts, but of whole/parts, holons." --Ken Wilber
#46 · Dec 10, 2002, 07:00 · clandestino
1) Peacefulwarrior's post detailing the diary of an individual who used drugs, with some quite bad effects.
2) The fact that these drugs are generally illegal. Hmmm...I wonder why.
3) The fact that using a drug TAKES AWAY SOME ASPECT OF THE CONTROL OF THE EXPERIENCE.
And BTW its nice to see someone with balls who isn't afraid of insulting other people on the boards ! Yes, I mean you Rolling bear ! Your posts have been quite entertaining ! : )
But surely, you don't actually believe that Terence McKenna stuff ?!! Its rubbish !
ps - I have a calender that is far more accurate than the Maya ever had - its at the bottom right corner of my screen. And you don't see me going around making predictions about the end of the world now do you ?!
Mark
#47 · Dec 10, 2002, 07:37 · alivie
quote:Why do you think they are illegal? Dangerous to us? Dangerous to society? Dangerous to the status quo?
2) The fact that these drugs are generally illegal. Hmmm...I wonder why.
Maybe our governments don't want us all getting enlightened.
Alcohol is legal and just as dangerous (probably more dangerous) than some of these banned substances.
As Bill Hicks once said:
" Go back to bed America, your government is in control, keep drinking beer, here's some American Gladiators for you!"
As far as I see it-
OBE - fantastic
mushroom experiences - fantastic
LSD - OK but not nearly as powerful.
Both OBE and mushroom journeys have left me with fantastic memories and the drive to find out more.
Oh and by the way, read McKenna's Food Of The Gods...surely it cannot be simply dismissed as rubbish??
#48 · Dec 10, 2002, 08:52 · clandestino
"Why do you think they are illegal? Dangerous to us? Dangerous to society? Dangerous to the status quo?"
I think that you have answered your own question for me !!! I would have to say all 3, mixed together. But dangerous to Status Quo, that legendary '80's guitar outfit ?! surely not.
Seriously though, I tend not to subscribe to conspiracy-type views on subjects :
"Maybe our governments don't want us all getting enlightened."
....I admit they are very attractive and make good reading, but there is not enough evidence to back them up - which is why they remain conspiracies.
Fair enough on your last point though :
"As far as I see it-
OBE - fantastic
mushroom experiences - fantastic
LSD - OK but not nearly as powerful.
Both OBE and mushroom journeys have left me with fantastic memories and the drive to find out more."
It's up to you if you decide to try drugs; good to see that you have had great experiences with them. But I think that society generally has the right idea in banning them.
regards,
Mark
#49 · Dec 10, 2002, 19:15 · Frank
quote:Dave, I'd begin to make a clear distinction between drugs and plants if I were you. I've got two of my old lecturer buddies and my ex-professor waiting to take money from you. And that's in addition to the half-million GBP I bet for when you walk on water next year.
Originally posted by Rolling Bear:
FRANK, psychotropic drugs and plants are non-addictive
quote:The drugs in question would not be Psychotropic if they did not effect our state of mind. As such, they cannot not have addiction concerns.
They are not illegal because of addiction concerns; the reasons for their illegality are far more complex, but have to do essentially with ways of controlling our states of mind.
quote:Dave, I've said before that often your vernacular is hard for me to follow, but here we concur. Consumerism, particularly north-American style consumerism, has always been to my complete distaste.
They often trigger in the user a sense of the illusory nature of things, including ideas closely held by society, such as "being a consumer is good," "everyone should be a wage-earner," and "don't question your government.
But as to being a wage-earner, well, my wife and myself are both wage-earners. Which is obviously not to your taste but my wife and I (and all our neighbours I should hasten to add) think it's far better than robbing people for a living. As I say, over 50% of all street crime and burglary in the UK is commited by addicts wanting their next fix.
Yours,
Frank
#50 · Dec 12, 2002, 19:59 · Rob
A few quick points....
Anyone who disagrees that drugs can have positive, lasting, psychological effects - even beneficial spiritual effects - go and do some research on Ibogaine. I plan to take some in the future, when the time is right. Amazing stuff by all accounts.
I have heard the old "short cut" argument many times now, but as I think has already been remarked, it is only a means to an end. There any many many paths you can take, this is just one of them.
Also, I have to say that I have tried ketamine, and it made me realise that reality really isn't that real, being much more fluid and oddly subjectivel than everyday experience suggests. I also have friend who takes the stuff regularly and is really quite screwed up because of it
*MODERATION* is the key.
I honestly cannot stress that enough.
Regular intake of any drugs is a bad thing.
But trying some drugs just once, is also a bad thing (eg in my very limited experience, exstacy). So start small, get your sea legs, and then try a larger dose.
However, there are no absolutes, ESPECIALLY on a topic as subject as drug use. One persons heaven turns into another persons hell. Again, we each can only find our own way. Eyes sharp though!
As for why it is illegal?? Well, and I hate absolutes just in general, but I have to say that anybody who thinks the reasons are for the good of the population, simply has not done their homework. Making drugs illegal, as has been proved many times, does not decrease usage - it increases it (eg decriminalisation in switzerland, usage statistics on amsterdam compared to america, the effects of alcohol prohibition in america, etc etc etc). Faced with such evidence, ALL arguments to keep drugs illegal fall flat on their face.
What making them illegal does do, however, is increase the prices....hmm. It also forms huge devides between drugs users, and those who don't use drugs. Reinforced by media bulls**t, this gap grows wider and wider. And from here you only plunge head-long into conspiracy theories so I'll keep retreat back into my corner mumbling about the end of the world and reptilians if you all don't mind....hehehe
-------
Rob
-------
seperation = bad
coming together = good
#51 · Dec 12, 2002, 20:44 · ralphm
#52 · Dec 12, 2002, 21:22 · Paukki
******************************
What am I doing on a level of consciousness where this is real?
No resistance.
Love it the way it is.
Love as much as you can from wherever you are.
Whether I feel it or not, I am one with all the love in the universe.
Go beyond reason to love: it is safe. It is the only safety.
Whatever you are doing, love yourself for doing it.
When you learn to love hell, you will be in heaven.
**************************************************************
Love, and good luck, (whoever you are),
--Paukki
#53 · Oct 06, 2003, 04:55 · 11
quote:Steve, have you tried DMT? With all due respect it doesn't sound like it. I tried it some years ago, it was the last drug I tried and I haven't done any since. I did lose control - totally. I don't understand how you can make a generalization like that. I'm not at all against DMT or any other psychedelic substance or experience. I just know from personal experience that it is FULLY INTENSE to say the least and it shouldn't be taken lightly. "therefor if you take it externally its equivelent to intense meditation." - I think anyone who's taken a full dose or even less of DMT would agree that this is not true. It is not like an intense meditation - so beyond it. I blacked out because it was too powerful and in my face. It will really blow you away in a split second so please don't go around advocating something if you haven't tried it yourself.
Originally posted by asstray85
I agree bear. If you are going to reply to this topic, dont reply on impulse and express your knowlege of drugs, because dmt is different. It is naturally secreted during meditiation, therefor if you take it externally its equivelent to intense meditation. So It would never ruin your control, I tried to explain before but i guess some people didnt get it.
-Steve
Respectfully,
11
#54 · Oct 06, 2003, 10:10 · Logic
http://www.akasha.de/~aton/NeoDMT.html
heres a good article.
#55 · Oct 06, 2003, 11:26 · RJA
quote:Just to clear this up, - The chemical composition of DMT and LSD are very similar which is why they have a simialr effect. They both do a whammy on the pineal gland. The pineal gland (located near the top-middle of the brain) is considered by consciousness sorts to be the "seat-of-the-soul", i.e. where consciousness resides. It's no coincidence that it's location in the brain coincides with where the Crown Chakra is. The pineal is extremely sensative to chemical effects and has a membrane around it that regulates very closely what chemicals can come into contact with the pineal. Typically, seratonin (mood regulator) is about all that can get through this membrane. The body does produce tiny amounts of DMT (maybe even produced by the pineal) but nowhere near what you would get by actually smoking, injecting (experiments were done on this in the 60s) or drinking DMT (in the form of Ayahuasca or another concoction). Apparently, however, chemicals classified as "tryptamines" (DMT and LSD both) can fool the membrane around the pineal and once acting upon this gland create a variety of similar effects. So to say one is hallucinagenic and the other, spiritual, is not founded in science or research certainly.
Originally posted by asstray85
...LSD messes with your head, you see and hear things that simply arent there, imaghes, sounds, etc, created by your brain, and of course the possiblility of a spiritual experience. DMT on the other hand is purely spiritual...
There's a book (look on Amazon) called "DMT: The Spirit Molecule" by an MD named Rick Strassman - in which he discusses clinical research in the 60s done to evaluate the effects of DMT and to evaluate it's potential benefits in the area of psychotherapy. Essentially he had a variety of volunteers, all familiar with use of hallucinagens, and he injected them with increasing doses of DMT in a research environment. Injecting DMT produced a fast, hard trip. Milder doses just caused hallucinations and larger doeses caused the participants to perceive that they had "transcended" reality or left their bodies. Many reported coming into contact with "beings", who in many cases seemed to know them, and often acted surprised to see them (as in "what the heck are you doing here, now"). Surprisingly, the forms that these beings took tended to fall into three categories; aliens, insects, and clowns!?
Another book I read, "Ayahuasca: Human Consciousness and the Spirits of Natures", by Ralph Metzner, Ph.D. discussed the effects of DMT on dozens of people who used Ayahuasca as part of a South American religious ritual. Those he interviewed were mainly Americans who went to South America to participate in such a ritual. Since they consumed it in the form of a drink, their "trips" had a slower onset and laster longer. And because of the setting (spiritual ritual) and their expection (it was described to them as the "serpent" drug and they were told to expect visions of snakes and serpents) they typically reported more mystical results involving serpents and snakes. (Makes one wonder whether it's reputation as "the serpent" is a psychological association to the snake in the Garden of Eden being the bearer of knowledge, since this brew also is reputed to bring one to greater knowledge of themself, but I digress) Typically these visions were interepreted as connecting them to some sort of divine power in order to help them work through some sort of issues they were having in their lives. The participants generally all had very positive reviews of the experience.
Anyway, - interesting books.[
]
#56 · Oct 06, 2003, 11:32 · LogoRat
And btw... shamans have used DMT for generations...yes, but it has only been used to make their new brothers or sisters understand the illusion of reality. Not a partydrug, but a drug to make ppl understand the nature of reality.
So, its not something you take just like that.
But then again, some may want to use drugs to stimulate their spiritual connection, i dont.
People have even reported beeing more intelligent when taking LSD.
They can do better at tests when they are high on LSD.
LSD is a very good drug for other purposes also, but then again... if you have something in your DNA that says "schizofrenia" it may be triggered when taking LSD.
I think the same goes foes for DMT, it is harmless for the general population and for the shamans, but for others with different DNA structure than the shamans has, it may trigger some "strange behavior of personality" when taking DMT.
This is just a thought, im not scaring someone to not use DMT.
Most of us have alot of interferens from the radiowaves, electronic equipments, chemicals in water, cellphones etc etc, some live in societies that push people under water(supress the spiritual connection).
If you are a person living in the rocks on some really offworld place up in the mountains, you then dont need any drug at all, heck..you dont even have to practice like a rabbit on ice.
But if you live where most people do nowdays.. in the hightech society.. some may need drugs to disconnect themselves or disrupt the interferens from the stuff that hits the bodies all day.
Some wants to use drugs, some dont... and some wants to tell people not to do drugs, and some wants everyone to take drugs.
Like with everything, trust yourself.
#57 · Oct 06, 2003, 13:07 · Grainless
addicts.. fixes?!
huh jesus christ.. yahhh right..
but yah heroine and crack and cocaine are psychotropic.. so is caffeine and alcohol.
but i dont think we are talking about cocaine, heroin and crack here, now are we? wich would be kinda bad.. and they are addictive and they commit crimes for them... but i never heard of people doing crimes for their mushrooms?! I can get them legally here cheap
holland 4 life
#58 · Oct 06, 2003, 17:27 · iamdead2
Speculation is useless when talking about DMT, the experience i would describe as total ego loss followed by some sort of molten bliss. On the other hand Ive seen a friend absolutely horrified by his first experience, maybe this has something to do with his emotional state similar to 'bad' trips on LSD. Labelling it 'harmless' is in a sense incorrect, but taken at the appropriate initial dosage and the right state of mind should lead you into and experience that is mind-blowingly beautiful. Some say it is too amazing and too beautiful, that their lives seems painfully mundayne in comparison. But the experience only lasts for 5-15 minutes and I forget most of what I percieved, im left feeling recalibrated and assured that there is an intelligence out there. One that is far more amazing and affectionate than I could ever cognitively imagine.
#59 · Oct 06, 2003, 18:51 · xander
quote:shamanshop.net sells the grass. instructions on how to make it are easily found. The Vaults of Erowid also has some great info on it.
Originally posted by Tom
It is still not obvious to me how to get DMT cheaply and without legal troubles. It is not enough to know that I produce it in my pineal gland and that I can find it in plants in South America
Xander