#0 · Nov 24, 2002, 12:22 · n/a

I had a post censored last night.
Here is why:
The thread was titled 'christianburner' in the integral philosophy forum. I said that I found the logo at christianburner.com to be identical to the logo at a site I found a month ago dealing with black magick and pathworking on the dark side of the tree of life. I mentioned in my post that do NOT practice black magick. I did NOT provide a link to the black magick site in question. The point of my post was to say that I found christianburner.com creepy because it reminded me of the other site.

Some moderator on this site had the audacity to remove my post. When I notified Adrian of this development he merely said something to the effect of "moderators can remove any posts they want according to their individual criteria". Really Adrian? I would think there would be a policy set by Robert Bruce or one senior moderator regarding what should be removed. It's nice to know that individual moderators can remove any post that makes them feel icky. I thought this place was supposed to be professional.

Adrian's reply to me(in private message) basically says that there is a policy of censorship at this site. This policy is arbitrary. It has no guidelines. It is up to the discretion of individual moderators. There is no guiding rule. And there is no authority to appeal to.

Take a look again at what I have stated above. I wrote a post saying I thought christianburner.com to be creepy because it had the same logo as a creepy site dealing with black magick. I did not advocate black magick. I did not provide a link to the site dealing with black magick. I merely mentioned that both sites had the same logo. And that is why some moderator removed my post. I made it explicitly clear in my original post that I do not practice black magick. I find it incredible that some idiot on this site would take a post like that down.

Let's consider some alternatives:
What if I posted to some thread on this site the following words:
"some internet sites are creepy because they deal with black magick". Would that post be removed? According to Adrian there is no real set of guidelines, so if that made any moderator feel icky they could take it down. What if I said "some people on our planet are creepy and practice black magick". Would that post be taken down? According to Adrian it certainly could be. it's just up to the judgement of whoever is on call at the time.

I wonder what other members of this site think about this unprofessional policy and unbalanced conduct on the part of the moderator who removed my original post.

I wonder if the moderators on call will try to suppress this post? I wonder if I need to let people on alt.meditation.qigong, alt.wicca, alt.yoga , and alt.magick about the censorship here.

#1 · Nov 24, 2002, 13:08 · Adrian

Greetings everyone,

I feel compelled to respond this issue.

First of all, I have a number of trusted moderators who frequently read posts in the various forums. I trust their discretion completely.

I have no idea which moderator deleted this particular post, and neither do I need to know,  but whoever it was would have done so for good reason - of that you can be sure.

Moderation here is extremely light - due mostly to the high quality of almost all posts - for which we are all most grateful and thank everyone. We are rapidly approaching the 20,000 post mark since we started in February,and I think we have another 32 members joined in the last few days alone. I have only ever known perhaps a dozen posts ever deleted in moderation - that speaks for itself.

Please feel free to discuss this issue here openly.

With best regards,

Adrian.

#2 · Nov 24, 2002, 13:51 · n/a

The fact remains that I had a post removed without good reason. That is if you accept my version of events above. I have stated my case in my post. Now if some moderator wants to come on this thread and be specific about why they removed my post that's fine.

Adrian's position is simple. No one would have removed my post without good reason. He knows this because he knows his moderators. He knows their judgement.

Well it's very simple from my point of view. Based on my version of events NO ONE with good judgement would remove my post. So we really have two possibilities here. Either my version of events(regarding the content of my post) is correct or it isn't. I claim that I did nothing inappropriate. Either my claim is valid or not. And I doubt the moderator who removed my post has the courage to come in here and admit what they did.

If my version of events is correct then whoever removed my post is incompetent and unprofessional. So the question is this: am I accurately representing the content of the removed post?

I give my word that I have accurately represented the content of the removed post. And based on that NO ONE with good judgement would remove the post in question. If the moderator who removed my post wants to come in here and give a different version of events then fine. But the truth is as I have stated it. And if my original message is stored on your site somewhere then we can simply verify this.

Adrian merely dismisses the issue without considering the facts. I find it funny that he comes up with this approach: "I know my moderators so I don't need to concern myself with the facts. It's impossible that they acted unprofessionally". Well they did.

Either I am lying about the content of my post or not. If you accept my version of events then you will no doubt agree with my position. I did nothing to violate the standards of this site.

Let's see someone come in here and TRY to claim I did something inappropriate. Let's see someone allege a different version of events. That will not happen. So draw your own conclusions.

#3 · Nov 24, 2002, 14:27 · James S

If you think a forum moderator has done something inappropriate, ask them directly. Why publicise it like this?

As someone who has been on this site for a while now, I can honestly say that the only time I've ever questioned a moderator has been a simple case of misinterpretation. A small issue that was quickly and pleasently rectified.

I have seen an increadibly broad range of thoughts and philosophies posted on this site, with no intervention by the moderators unless somebody has started to become abusive. Could the deletion of your post simply have been a mistake, or a glitch on the Astral Pulse server?

The conclusions I am drawing at the moment is that by publicly going on the attack like this is, you are giving the impression that you are looking for an argument rather than trying to resolve one.

James.

#4 · Nov 24, 2002, 14:48 · Tom

So how does one go about looking up who deleted a post in order to go about contacting that person directly? I've never had a post get deleted that I know of, so I cannot say if there is an e-mail or private message sent about the matter after the fact with this information.

#5 · Nov 24, 2002, 16:42 · n/a

I contacted Adrian directly, because he's the only forum moderator I really know. The truth is I don't know who deleted the post. I contacted Adrian in a private message format. Honestly I wasn't out to start any trouble. But the reply I got from Adrian(after explaining my situation) was basically "hey my moderators are empowered to get rid of anything they desire, according to their own criteria...hope that answers your questions". I'm paraphrasing of course. The response was insensitive and dismissive of the problem. So yeah I got ticked off and took it public. I guess I feel I have been wronged here. And I wasn't looking for anyone too get on their knees and beg my forgiveness. But the glibness of the reply I got rubbed me the wrong way.

#6 · Nov 24, 2002, 17:10 · MsAmericanPie

I agree that there should be a Censorship Policy.  I dunno, that's just me.

#7 · Nov 24, 2002, 19:10 · James S

Tom,
OK, you got me on that one. Apart from the "Alert Moderator" which will send a message direct to the particular moderator for that forum, I don't know how you can find out who moderates what.

booRadley,
Fair enough. I guess I can understand how you feel if you've not been able to find out what happened.
Please don't form an opinion on how this site is run or how Adrian looks after it based on this incident. He is generally very helpful and is not at all in the habit of being dismissive.

It could still have been a glitch which caused the post to be lost. I have actually had that happen once - thinking that I've entered the info, seen it posted, then gone back to it and found it not there. It was annoying as I'd forgotten some of what I had typed, but the database engine that runs the site and the forum front end to the engine don't always get along.

If you think OBEs and the like tend to work outside the realm of normal reality try running a web server!

James.

#8 · Nov 24, 2002, 21:15 · ralphm

I kind of get the idea that you said what you wanted to in your second post here. Maybe your censored post was a fluke, 8 months here and yours is the first complaint I saw. Maybe if there was no filtering this site would be overun with christians saying we are following satan or satanists saying we will have obe's if we worship the horney guy!

#9 · Nov 25, 2002, 00:09 · mayhem

You claim this site isn't professional? I have to disagree this is actually the best forum I have found regarding astral and energy development. I find that most of the members here are polite and professional in regards to the posts they make. If something is offensive any one of the members here can alert the moderators. Obviously the moderators have an interesting job interpreting each post, but they do an excellent job. Theres no needless advertisements and no "icky" posts. If you think your post wasn't offensive try it again. Other than that I believe everyone involved with this site has only the best interests in mind. Try to respect their decisions, reword and repost.  I personally don't see the need to "bog" down the moderators with senseless guidelines and red tape. They do their job well and you should be thankful this site exists. I am a new member but I read far more than I actually post.

To be very honest I have a feeling the moderators didn't just stumble upon your post. I think perhaps a number of regular members alerted the moderator because they felt the content was questionable. It really isn't your judgement or opinion that matters here. You can state that your content wasnt improper and thats great. It's the public and the moderators that decided if thats something they want to see. Obviously it wasn't. Don't take it so personal but this site isn't exactly geared towards sites you think are creepy. Try to post things that will help the community. Thats all the advice I have.

#10 · Nov 25, 2002, 05:15 · n/a

mayhem,

I can only tell you that I have accurately represented the original post. I didn't leave anything out. In my opinion the original post did NOTHING to violate the standards here. And I agree there should be standards. But they have to be reasonable, fair, and somewhat consistent. And if I ask a moderator about those standards they should have a few more words than "hey my people do whatever they want, according to their individual whims".

I give my word that my original post was exactly as I have described it in this thread.

#11 · Nov 25, 2002, 05:22 · n/a

MsAmericanPie,

I agree there should be standards here. But those standards should be reasonable, fair, and relatively consistent. And the criteria for those standards should be publicly available. Everyone here should have an idea of what the standards are and what they are based on. And yes moderators can be called when material seems inappropriate to some member. But then moderators have to make a professional decision based on standards as described above.

And I maintain that there is no way my original post violated the standards of this place, so long as the standards are reasonable. My original post is just as I have described it here. So you can read my first post in this thread and form your own judgement about whether THAT PARTICULAR post should have been deleted.

#12 · Nov 25, 2002, 07:52 · Jeff_Mash

booRadley...

First off, welcome to the board.  I can tell you're an intelligent and logical guy, so don't take this the wrong way....but you are sure that you hit the "Post Reply" button, right?

I know it sounds stupid, but I run a pretty popular Message Board on my own website, and I've had one or two people b*tch me out for deleting their post.  It turns out that they accidentally hit "Preview" instead of "Submit", thought that their post was published, only to come back later and find it missing!

Again, I know you're a logical guy and this is probably something that you didn't do.  I just wanted to bring it up since I know that there's a small probability that it could've happened.

Anyway mate, it's good to have you on board.  Don't let something this stupid discourage you from future posts, as I look forward to hearing more about what you have to say.

Keep smiling,

Jeff Mash
MyJokeMail.com - Jokes and Humor
http://myjokemail.com

#13 · Nov 25, 2002, 08:58 · Tom

This is going to be my 855th post here. As far as I know, nothing I have posted has been deleted and some of my posts have actually bordered on cruel. Many have been almost pointless when looking back on them. It seems to me that if anyone would have had a post deleted without cause the odds are in favor of this person being me. If posts were deleted without cause then why not this whole thread?

#14 · Nov 25, 2002, 11:22 · Tisha

So here I'm thinking, perhaps when a moderator deletes a post for objectionable content, some "bot" message might go into that person's inbasket, stating something generic along the lines of "I'm sorry, but your post did not meet (whatever) standards?"

That would help a post-er know that his/her post was actually deleted, rather than lost on the information superhighway.

Tisha

"As Above, So Below"

#15 · Nov 25, 2002, 11:24 · Tisha

Oooh, I just had another thought - - - by a "bot" going into the post-er's inbox, the post-er can then reply to the bot (maybe?) and engage in correspondence with the moderator as he/she thinks necessary

Tisha

"As Above, So Below"

#16 · Nov 25, 2002, 17:27 · n/a

Tom,
I don't know why some posts are deleted and others left alone.
Here are some things to consider:
Unless someone goes public with the fact that they were censored the rest of the members would never know that a post was removed. It is possible that many posts are deleted and that the members simply don't know the frequency with which this occurs. I don't see a lot of other threads on the topic of deleted posts so I may one of the first(or the few) to go public in this way.
I doubt that the moderators would try to remove this thread. It would be an obvious act apparent to all. Unless the thread were deleted immediately when I posted it. I made it clear in my first post of this thread that I would take it to the news groups and all over the metaphysical internet if that were to happen.
The new age/occult internet is a big place, full of many heavy league individuals. Any discussion there would be on the merits strictly. Disrespect the east and you alienate all Hindus, Buddhists, and Taoists who practice those disciplines in a serious manner. Disrepect magick and that crowd won't be endeared. Slight yoga in favor of books on chakra balancing and word gets around. The pros have a certian 'weight' when they speak. Not all opinions are equal. There is no group hug after the conversation. And people know who the best teachers are, because they have techniques that work and are based on tradition. Hollow statements like "we respect all religions" don't go far when the author of the statement is marketing a cheap rip-off of chi-kung.

#17 · Nov 25, 2002, 18:57 · PeacefulWarrior

Hello Mr. Boo...well, you have made some very valid points.  All in all, it sounds like what you posted wasn't that big a deal...so I don't think we need to make a big deal of it now.  I assume what you posted may have looked ugl, or "evil" and for one reaoson or another they decided to take it off???  Anyway, Adrian seems to have already cleared it up, at least in my opinion.

Best wishes

fides quaerens intellectum

#18 · Nov 25, 2002, 19:10 · MJ-12

g

#19 · Nov 25, 2002, 19:21 · MJ-12

rgw

#20 · Nov 26, 2002, 00:38 · mayhem

I'll have to agree with MJ-12 he really got it right. We are all guests on this incredible wealth of knowledge. I understand you'd like to post whatever you'd like. I hope you choose to stay with us and post and respond frequently in the future. I do have some concerns because you decided to go ahead and threaten the moderators and this forum even though they haven't done anything since the initial incident. I find this rather distasteful. I understand you might be feeling dissapointed because board members didn't jump on your side... but did you really expect them to? You started this thread insulting Adrian, one of the better admins on this forum. He responds quickly and honestly to questions and concerns. He is very active in the gateway and bwgen discussions which only serve to benefit the whole forum (especially beginners). And theres many more moderators behind the scenes that keep this place running. I am grateful to have found this great site and I'd hope you are too. So lets just move on? I don't think this forum is really benefiting from this thread. I'd suggest as someone else did to post a question about Moderation: Rules and Guidelines in the Forums Bugs Reports and Questions area. And to let this thread fade into the background as it is filled with your negative opinions about this site. All I see is a new member hurt by the actions of one, trying to turn a community against itself.

Your quote to me:
"hey my people do whatever they want, according to their individual whims".
My quote to you:
"The sites trusted moderators, read and discard material they feel is inappropriate."

PS: Stated in your last post that you don't know how many peoples posts are getting deleted. But if you paid any attention to Adrians first response you'd realize theres only been "perhaps a dozen posts ever deleted in moderation." But I suppose you don't trust him? Get Real.

#21 · Nov 26, 2002, 07:50 · n/a

Bwahahaha!
Taking up someone's bandwidth? A wealth of knowledge? At this place? Who here has a wealth of knowledge?
I see a lot of new agers, few with real training. I see armchair magicians who claim to have fought werewolves. This would get laughed out of any reasonable place. I see christians everywhere using words like Kundalini, despite the fact that they probably have never met an authentic teacher of laya yoga or raja yoga in their lives! they don't even know the difference between vedanta and Kashmir Shaivism. Yet these poseurs claim to have some experience with kundalini. Maybe in their imagination. HA HA HA!!!
I see people like Robert Bruce saying they don't believe in reincarnation because they are christian and jesus told them it wasn't true. I see people complaining about all that dogma of the eastern traditions, when in fact the only exposure they have had to the east is through new age frauds like Madame Blavatsky who talk of Tibetan gurus while they know nothing of Tibetan religion, history, or culture.
Please. A wealth of knowledge?
One prominent poster here(BlueLightMystic) claims to be a master of zhan zhuang. BWA HA HA HA!!! under what teacher? How long did this person train? In what system of zhan zhuang? Do you have any idea how hard it is to do zhan zhuang for even half an hour at medium height posture? To be considered a master in this art one would, among other things, have practiced at low posture for one hour per day for many years. How many masters of zhan zhuang are there out there? Not many. And I've met more high level martial arts people than most of the people on this board wii EVER meet in their LIVES.
I regularly post at kungfuonline.com , and I'm sure people over there in the nei jia forum would love to talk to a master of zhan zhuang. And there are some experienced people over there. Perhaps bluelightmystic would like to stop by and repeat her claim there. HA HA HA HA!!!!
This place is a joke.
Robert Bruce is a clown trying to rip off chi kung with his "N.E.W." methods. How funny. I guess chi kung was to tough for him, so he decided to make up his own system. But then again a lot of those chi kung and nei kung teachers might be wrong about a lot of things, you know there is so much dogma. Maybe they need to ask jesus whether their practices are valid. maybe one day they should just empty out their "tea cup" and ask jesus what he thinks. Too funny.
This place was lucky to have someone of my caliber here. And I don't consider myself to be of high caliber. But look at what you've got here. But you know what, I'd rather leave. I believe truth matters. I believe character matters. So I don't follow the false sayings of new age hucksters who lack authentic training.
peace out kids.

#22 · Nov 26, 2002, 10:31 · Synapse

hi boo...
u should be kicking urself right now. u have managed to turn a slight misunderstanding, possibly even an error on ur part into a full on war.
obviously somthing happened to ur thread and that is upsetting for u but its not really a serious problem.
even if a moderator made a mistake(which is unlikley) and ur post should not have been deleted its not the end of the world. everone makes mistakes.

u have responded with an abusive post that really should be deleted. it mocks and insults everthing this site stands for and even its creator rb was not spared in ur openly agressive assult.

after what u have said i dont think it is possible for u to stay as valued member. if u are so much higher than everbody else y dont u leave us all in peace.

#

#23 · Nov 26, 2002, 11:51 · Tom

As for me, I fully intend to go looking at kungfuonline.com to see what is available on it for myself. Anyone who can tell me exactly what I am doing wrong, or worse, failing to do, is a friend.

Peace is a good thing, and agreement on a common purpose. My problem is too much peace. Instead of meditating as much as I would like I have to be careful to not go to sleep. When there is nothing to be accomplished, it is best to leave peaceful things alone. It is just important to stir things up from time to time when it is directed toward a specific goal.

#24 · Nov 26, 2002, 12:17 · Frank

Look, it's just a suggestion: but why don''t we all agree to disagree and post a joke or something. I honestly do not mean to undermine the feelings of the original poster to this thread. But I have always found this place to be populated by friendly people who seek to avoid misunderstanding as much as possible. For me to read a thread like this is unusual. It never happened before to my knowledge.

Adrian has obviously offered the opportunity of us discussing this issue openly, but within the confines of this thread. Which I take it to mean that you are welcome to submit your original post here in order that any issue(s) regarding it can be aired. It could well be, for instance, the simple answer is that what you posted was off topic. Either for the forum in question, or maybe for this BBS as a whole.

Yours,
Frank

#25 · Nov 26, 2002, 13:38 · Adrian

Greetings everyone,

First of all - my sincere and grateful thanks to each and every one of you who have publicly voiced support here for my efforts in operating and managing the Astral Pulse - I really do appreciate it I assure you, and I will endeavour to  continue to operate Astral Pulse the way it has always been operated - freely for the benefit of everyone and anyone who finds it to be of service and value in their chosen path and for any other reason at all..

I have chosen to advise everyone that boo Radley has sent me private messages and emails asking that his accounts on this site and Spiritual Truths be terminated immediately. I have responded most politely asking him to reconsider his decision, and for many of the the reasons many of you have already stated here, but he then chose to respond to me with a series of emails that can only be mildly described as "disappointing" to say the least.

I have no choice of course but to respect his position and feelings on this matter, and I am obliged to terminate his account if that is his demand. I have given him 24 hours to reconsider before I proceed with his request.

I mention this only because I do not want it to appear that I have taken the decision myself to terminate his membership, which most assuredly I have not.

I suppose that it is inevitable that this sort of unfortunate situation will occur with 1300+ members and rapidly rising, and nearly 20,000 posts - and all since February this year. Although we might lose one member, I can say that in the last week alone we have gained 75 new members, and I sincerely hope that they derive the same value from this resource as every member hopefully does.

With kind regards,

Adrian.

#26 · Nov 26, 2002, 15:33 · Tisha

Oh, dear, dear, dear!   Looks like our now-former member was just spoiling for a fight.  Our community's mild responses to him probably got him more spooled up than a real attack post would have.

Most of you are wise enough to see things for what they are, but for you newbies out there, know this:  The minute someone posts anything to the effect of "You fools!  I am King Pasta Tenth Degree of the Order of Macaroni and thou shalt worship me, you are lucky to have me on your site!" that should be your First Clue that what you are really dealing with is a Moron of the First Order.

Ahh, but he didn't find what he was looking for here, he has picked up his sword and slunk off to some other site.  Great job everyone!

Gee, I love this forum, I luv you gals/guys, keep it up - -

Tisha

"As Above, So Below"

#27 · Nov 27, 2002, 03:33 · Synapse

im sorry about my previous post to boo it was not my place to say the things i did but i was angry.
im young and new to this site and do not yet have the wisdom of other members. i hope i have not offended any other members.

#

#28 · Nov 27, 2002, 05:18 · Frank

quote:
Originally posted by booRadley:
Bwahahaha!
Taking up someone's bandwidth? A wealth of knowledge? At this place? Who here has a wealth of knowledge?
I see a lot of new agers, few with real training. I see armchair magicians who claim to have fought werewolves. This would get laughed out of any reasonable place.
I hear all that you say, and it is unfortunate that you seem to have got off on the wrong foot here. Personally, I'd rather you remain and share some of your knowledge. I'm sure many of us would be most interested to hear of your experiences and the superior skills that you say you possess. Though, from what you say in this thread, your focus seems to be more karate oriented and this BBS is mainly to do with Astral Projection. So I'm not sure what the connection is there.

Best of luck, anyway.

Yours,
Frank

#29 · Nov 27, 2002, 09:46 · Adrian

Greetings everyone,

I have now terminated the membership of booRadley in accordance with his requests.

Thank you all again for your public support.

With best regards,

Adrian.