#0 · Oct 27, 2002, 12:37 · napoleon
(Sorry for my poor English)
The people with strong alpha waves during relaxation will never experience OOB. They consist of approx. 65 % of population. The strength of alpha doesn't allow them to reach the sufficent depth of mental and physical relaxation. They are of course relaxed but not the way they should be for extraordinary experience.
Approx. 15 % of adults shows quite strong theta and weak alpha. These are the folks who if try are successul with all the Monroe tapes (hemis-sync) light and sound machines, floatation tanks and so forth.
I hope you are in the second group so you don't waste your money and don't get frustrated for lack of results with the tapes and mind machines.
If you are in the first group, well, just follow the hype and try and try and try.
Good luck
Jan
ps.
The other 20 % are classified into other groups.
Jan
#1 · Oct 27, 2002, 12:40 · Zarklon
#2 · Oct 27, 2002, 12:41 · Tom
#3 · Oct 27, 2002, 12:44 · Tia
#4 · Oct 27, 2002, 12:51 · Tom
#5 · Oct 27, 2002, 13:42 · Adrian
Everyone expereinces all frequencies during a typical day from beta through to delta. To get to delta you need to pass through theta.
It is all a matter of balance. I should think that everyone has a predominent frequency, but it is quite possible by means of meditation, hemi-sync etc. to re-progam your brain rythms to particular frequencies.
To say that people get stuck in alpha makes no sense to me, and everyone leaves their body every night in delta anyway.
With best regards,
Adrian.
#6 · Oct 27, 2002, 13:44 · napoleon
Didn't you ever wonder that few folks have a super extra experiences no matter what tape or mind machine they try while others struggle for long time and either give up or continue the chase.
Those few talented folks write all the wonderful messages and descriptions of their experiences while hundreds or thousands get almost nothing but hope. The hundreds get very excited by what they read and hear but they are poor folks - they can't experience it themselves.
I am not a scientist and I wish I am damn wrong and you are right.
Wishing you big success
Jan
ps.
Maybe next week I will try to find more info on this topic, some research papers etc., will see.
Just keep open mind, but NOT TOO OPEN, otherwise you will be fooled by all the hype in advertising and self-advertising.
Jan
#7 · Oct 27, 2002, 14:01 · napoleon
"To say that people get stuck in alpha makes no sense to me, and everyone leaves their body every night in delta anyway."
Yes, we all go to sleep and are mainly in delta.
We all go through day and are mainly in beta plus other freqencies.
We all can relax, to some degree - and some people show strong alpha during relaxation while others just theta as dominant force or almost the dominant.
Just get hooked up to an EEG while listening to a tape or mind machine. You will see what I mean.
My friend has quite strong theta during rest, when he is hooked up to mind machine you can easily see how the graphs representing his brainwaves change. They are "combed" very quickly into a nice small pattern around 4 or 5 herz and he reports incredible visuals or feeling vibrations.
Myslef have strong alpha - I can spend 2 hours listening to a tape and nothing takes place. Of course, I am relaxed. But I can relax also watching a good movie - this is not a big deal. The graphs representing my brainwaves are altered a little bit but only a little bit. They usually drop from 10 herz to 8 herz. But this is not sufficient for OOBE. You need 4 or 5 or even as low as 3 herz, or combination of these low frequencies.
We have different brain patterns, even those who are so successul with the tapes and mind machines. But did you ever notice that some people have more interesting experience with one Focus state than the other ?
Some folks prefer Focus 12 others Focus 10 etc.
These Focus levels have different combination of frequencies - if your natural freq. during rest is close to Focus 12 you will have more of it than from any other Focus level.
For good results with the higher Focus you need also the very very high frequencies, above 50 or 100 herz. This is very unusual combination of freq. for example 4 herz and 200 herz in the same time !
But these experiences are also very unusual.
Jan
#8 · Oct 27, 2002, 14:20 · Tom
#9 · Oct 27, 2002, 14:37 · Adrian
I don't believe that people' s brainwaves get stuck in one frequency or another while relaxing.
Sure, some will have a tendency towards alpha, and some towards theta. Those that are on the theta side are fortunate.
However, there is no doubt that daily meditation will re-sync your brainwaves in a more relaxed state towards theta and even upper delta. This needs to be proper trance meditation however, with vacancy of mind, and be carried out every day if possible for up to a couple of hours. I am not a Buddhist, but I know that Zen style meditation is good for this.
Likewise with the hemi-sync CD's - they will connect up both hemi-spheres of the brain and enable theta to be reached much more easily. I am sure that the hemisphereical connectivity of the brain is a big part in determining the predominent and progressive frequencies achievable.
With best regards,
Adrian.
#10 · Oct 27, 2002, 16:22 · Jeff_Mash
In order for a person to recollect those memories when you're physical body is unconscious shows me that they possess the *tools* to one day become AWARE thatthey are dreaming....and that can be a platform to jump into a projection.
Keep smiling,
Jeff Mash
MyJokeMail.com - Jokes and Humor
http://myjokemail.com
#11 · Oct 27, 2002, 16:36 · OahnMacleod
I have used the following 2...
Flasher, which is a DOS program and very good in that it flashes to induce the alpha,beta.theta or delta wave state you want to get into.
It can be found at:
http://www.parabox.net/eye-candy/FLASHER.exe
***there is a warning not to use if susceptable to epilepsy***
And for sound waves, an excellent program might be found here at:
http://www.bwgen.com
Both are excellent programs, however, Flasher can only be used on WIN98 or prior as it is a DOS proggie, and I haven't take the time to see if I can somehow get it to run with WinXP properly. I believe if you make a boot up disk with it, and go to generic DOS, (if possible with XP), then you can run it fine...
Have fun with both...
Oahn
#12 · Oct 27, 2002, 16:38 · OahnMacleod
http://www.parabox.net/eye-candy/
and then choose Flasher down the list...
Sorry!
Oahn
#13 · Oct 27, 2002, 18:06 · MartyD
-Martin-
#14 · Oct 27, 2002, 18:24 · fredhedd
napolean, who are you and where did you get those figures? what study and where and who were the people that were tested? what do you have to back up what you are saying?
i'm going to need to see some credentials sir. i ask the policeman to see his badge before he handcuffs me.
#15 · Oct 27, 2002, 18:26 · Zarklon
Spank you guys
#16 · Oct 27, 2002, 18:39 · MartyD
Do you have the program. It has to be registered if you want to import presets such as this. If you do go here:
http://www.bwgen.com/presets/bwgen30.htm
Download the one called Deep Mind IV. You've gotta be comfy, I lie down on my bed and use it.
If you dont have the program, register it. If you can't afford it, there are other ways, which involve bending the rules a little. I'll tell you if you want but after that it's in your hands and has nothing to do with me. Also, fredhed, the same thought had occured to me.
#17 · Oct 27, 2002, 18:46 · social
I've only played with the brainwave generator for an hour or two. Once I figure out how I respond to all the different presets I'll most likely register the program, and explore somemore.
I'd really like to know where your numbers come from napoleon. I don't mean to imply that your lying, but common sense would typically dicate anyone posting such figures would post the source as well....
#18 · Oct 27, 2002, 18:51 · MartyD
#19 · Oct 27, 2002, 19:12 · napoleon
"napolean, who are you and where did you get those figures? what study and where and who were the people that were tested? what do you have to back up what you are saying?"
I like this question.
There were some small "studies" done by several of the mind machines/tapes designers/producers. The users asked why they don't get the colorful visual effects and the OOBE while some other users seems get it quite easy.
The explanation given was: their natural dominant frequency of brainwaves during rest was merely in alpha (between 12 and 8 herz). When the mind machine or the tape played signal 4 herz (for inducing OOBE) the brain didn't respond to it at all.
So no visuals, no vibes no OOBE.
People with strong alpha freq. need a special aproach, special training to "fool" their brains, to trick it, so the alpha is weakened and then can take place the so called Frequency Following Response. With weaker alpha the brainwaves are more flexible, it easier to "pull them down" from alpha to theta and even into delta. The flexibility of the brainwaves - and not the rigidity - is a must for everyone seriously interested in mind machines and OOBE.
I think even The Monroe Institute wrote about this problem (too strong natural alpha as obstacle for OOBE) in one of their research papers. I have to look into my papers and maybe on the next weekend I will give you some details.
The importance of weakening the alpha to make the brain more flexible and more willing to follow the binaural beat stimulation also described Mr Len Ochs. I don't remember exactly but he has his own strategy on alpha and is quite successful.
How successful in weakening the alpha are all the tapes and mind machines and each of them specifically I don't know - never saw any research.
Obviously many of them don't do it, maybe few does....
But to weaken the strong alpha is more difficult than stop smoking - is just there, period. I met many people using mind machines or tapes but only 3 of them experienced OOB.
Mayabe it impress some of you but not me
)
Probably the best way to experience OOB is to spend some time in Monroe Institute in their dark, isolated chambers for many many hours. But even there less than half of the folks experience OOB, if I remember it correctly, have to check next weekend.
Jan
#20 · Oct 27, 2002, 19:28 · MartyD
-Martin-
#21 · Oct 27, 2002, 19:35 · fredhedd
say someone can't consciously project due to whatever these problems are that you are speaking of but find themselves out of body everynight, and become conscious then?
or is it possible that because of this relaxations problem that not everyone projects like is thought?
#22 · Oct 27, 2002, 21:43 · BONEChief
Only when one can sit back and look at the whole picture, can one see the purpse of the little things in life. - Derick Koelsche
#23 · Oct 28, 2002, 02:26 · Adrian
quote:That sounds like a great experience, and could easily lead to OBE!
Originally posted by MartyD:
I used brainwave generator last night and it's the first time i've had vibrations. The particular frequencies I used went down from 14hz to 3.5 over 45 minutes to bring me down slow. I felt so heavy I thought I was gonna go through the bed.
-Martin-
Which BWGEN pre-set did you use?
I firmly believe that the reason some people experience alpha more readily than theta is due to the way that the left and right hemi-spheres of the brain work together. Brainwave-entrainment like Monroe and BWGEN will, when used enough times, synchronise the left and right spheres of the brain, and bring about the possibility of going down to theta almost at will.
That is why those with natural tendency towards alpha should not give up, but do regular meditation and/or hemi-synch training.
With best regards,
Adrian.
#24 · Oct 28, 2002, 03:23 · Adrian
I have posted an excellent article on hemi-sync and brainwave/bineural frequencies in the Astral Consciousness forum.
Wih best regards,
Adrian.
#25 · Oct 28, 2002, 06:45 · Christine
Christine
#26 · Oct 28, 2002, 06:55 · MartyD
http://www.bwgen.com/presets/deepmind4.bwg
Deep Mind IV it's called seems to do the trick. I've only been using the program for five or six days now and, again, last night I managed to get the vibes a second time. Also, interestingly, I haven't really paid much attention to quieting the mind, but i've found that after using this for almost a week I can keep my mind thought free for at least a minute.
Before I couldn't hold it for five seconds.
-Martin-
#27 · Oct 28, 2002, 09:30 · josemi
i agree with napoleon on a thing: i believe that there is a minority of people who have a capacity to project and there are a majority who doesnt. ive worked hard for months dedicating hours and hours of meditation and energy work (even with symbols of reiki) and i havent got anything. just some times to get my body numbed, and nothing else.
#28 · Oct 28, 2002, 09:31 · Adrian
I deemed this important enough to consult Robert Bruce for hos opinions. Robert is truly an expert at these things through many years of dedication.
Brian, who Robert refers to, is Robert's co-author for his forthcoming new Astral/OBE book. Here is what Robert says:
"First and foremost, these percentages appear to have been drawn from a very
small sample of the population, and are admittedly 'small studies'. More
research would most definitely be required before these stated percentages
could be used to pose more than a hypothetical argument. However, if the
research has some merit and only 35% of the population are capable of theta
and obe, that is quite a high average in itself. But the 65% who have
strong natural resistance to theta and OBE can still, I think, train their
brains to be more flexible. Once trained, they would be more susceptible to
artificial trance inducing aids. I have never come across any person who,
if they worked at it in the long term, could not accomplish full theta
trance and OBE. They might have to work at this for much longer than the
lucky 35%, but it can be done. Brian, my coauthor, is a shining example of
this. Brian is probably one of the 65%, but he has really worked at it and
has for some time been succeeding at OBE, LD, and even WILD."
I hope this helps people out this into perspective.
This re-nforces my own view that people are born with, or have developed, distinct differences in the way both hemi-spheres of the brain work together - the more they work together, the deeper theta obtainable in general terms. That being the case, the brain can be trained to work optimally, but it will take some time and effort. The effort is well worthwhile.
With best regards,
Adrian.
#29 · Oct 28, 2002, 09:35 · Adrian
quote:Thanks very much for your most useful information, and well done on the development.
Originally posted by MartyD:
I used this preset:
http://www.bwgen.com/presets/deepmind4.bwg
Deep Mind IV it's called seems to do the trick. I've only been using the program for five or six days now and, again, last night I managed to get the vibes a second time. Also, interestingly, I haven't really paid much attention to quieting the mind, but i've found that after using this for almost a week I can keep my mind thought free for at least a minute.
Before I couldn't hold it for five seconds.
I am sure that BWGEN has alot going for it, so I am going to start another topic in the Astral Consciousness forum.
With best regards,
Adrian.
#30 · Oct 28, 2002, 09:39 · Tom
#31 · Oct 28, 2002, 12:21 · napoleon
The designers/producers of these wonders claimed that their devices would help you with easy and effortless OOB, remote viewing, learn 100 or 500 foreign words within one session and so forth.
There were statements that such tapes and machines will be in every school so the kids will become super-students - relax in 10 minutes and 500 words learned within next 20 minutes. I was convinced and enthiusiastic.
Thirty years passed and there is less mind machines and tapes than it was before. Few schools used the tapes, few individuals exoerienced OOB and even fewer developed Remote Viewing but thousands paid their hard earned money for keeping the hope alive.
Ever wonder why it happened as it happened ?
There are folks who tried 100 or 200 times with various CDs and tapes and nothing really happened, except some mediocre sensations. I have better sensations after beer,
I am not saying that all the tapes / mind machines are wothless, probably not.
But I wish that instead of some very general and vague claims they would say the following:
"- Out of 100 folks who listened to my tape 80 reached the theta state and therefore I named it "The Theta Tape"
But no, they are very quiet, it is safer for them from economical point of view to say: just listen to our tape one time or few times and you get "IT".
Eventually if you don't get it after 100 times you can try 100 more times ... or buy another tape
And the best hit is to have a "feedback" on the front page from someone who was successul with such tape. Then if you are not successul you blame yourself instead of the producer. You think why he got something and not you, it must be something wrong with you, you are the failer and other crap. Just stop and think: maybe not you but this product is crap.
If they this product is so effective why they have the "feedback" from somebody signed with initials instead of the results of a research ?
(Sorry for my poor English, I hope you understand)
I wish you an easy OOBs or prolific astral sex.
Whatever.
Jan
ps.
I am not trying to destroy your hope. Hold it tight and have luck but don't be fooled. That's all folks.
Jan
#32 · Oct 28, 2002, 15:19 · MartyD
#33 · Oct 28, 2002, 17:22 · Jacara
quote:It's actually much easier for me to "picture" something with my eyes open, I've always assumed that this was unusual because people always say to "Close your eyes and imagine..."
Zen meditation is usually done with the eyes open, and over time they develop alpha frequencies with the eyes open.
The standing meditation I like to do is an eyes-open one, too.
Maybe I should just start from there; who says I have to have my eyes open for meditation / projection?
quote:Ditto.
I tend to sit in the alpha no matter how deeply I relax. Either that or I fall asleep. Hypnagogic imagery is highly unusual to me.
I guess I'll have to try to be one of the "65%". Not that I necessarily believe that number or that it's as hard to train the brain as some may think.
#34 · Oct 28, 2002, 17:58 · Tom
#35 · Oct 28, 2002, 19:30 · astralc
The masters all trained for many years to be able to achieve these trance states, what if they used methods other than deep brain relaxation? What do successful 'travellers' do that is not just relaxation?
I suspect that astral travel and OOB involves increasing ones chi or kundalini, raising ones vibrations to a higher level. Does that mean that their brain emitts theta and delta frequencies or does that involve beta and alpha or a mixture? What if it involves increasing chi to the chakras instead? I just don't know.
Astralc
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us." Ralph Waldo Emerson
www.shoal.net.au/~astralc
"The marriage of the ancient arts of astrology, taoism, tantra and the modern science of psychology."
#36 · Oct 29, 2002, 02:44 · Frank
quote:Er, because the advertising was a load of hype and a perfect demonstration of where something that might work fairly well in controlled conditions in a laboratory, can completely fall flat on its face when confronted with real-world conditions?
There were statements that such tapes and machines will be in every school so the kids will become super-students - relax in 10 minutes and 500 words learned within next 20 minutes. I was convinced and enthiusiastic.
Thirty years passed and there is less mind machines and tapes than it was before. Few schools used the tapes, few individuals exoerienced OOB and even fewer developed Remote Viewing but thousands paid their hard earned money for keeping the hope alive.
Ever wonder why it happened as it happened ?
Yours,
Frank
#37 · Oct 29, 2002, 05:22 · Adrian
quote:One of the most important aspects of projection is the "body asleep" state, so that consciousness can dissociate from the physical body. This is the process that occurs naturally every night during sleep, but in Astral projection we need to keep the mind awake to take control.
Originally posted by astralc:
What if the frequency of the brain has nothing to do with astral projection? What if it were some other factor?
The masters all trained for many years to be able to achieve these trance states, what if they used methods other than deep brain relaxation? What do successful 'travellers' do that is not just relaxation?
I suspect that astral travel and OOB involves increasing ones chi or kundalini, raising ones vibrations to a higher level. Does that mean that their brain emitts theta and delta frequencies or does that involve beta and alpha or a mixture? What if it involves increasing chi to the chakras instead? I just don't know.
Please note, that it is the body that is relaxed, and not the brain which needs to have full control over the situation.
There is little doubt that vital energy and vibrations can have a big effect on the projection of conscsiousness and subsequent control and memory, but the pre-requisite trance state comes before these in the sequence I think.
#38 · Oct 29, 2002, 05:53 · Lysear
however it seems that napolean is being lynched slightly! he has made a series of valid comments. Surely the purpose of this forum is to provide a discussion area for projection and related topics, therefore comments such as those by Napolean can only improve our understanding of the subject matter? am I right, if you think differently please tell me because I'd like to hear your opinions
Lysear
#39 · Oct 29, 2002, 07:31 · Tom
#40 · Oct 29, 2002, 09:08 · napoleon
I excpect that we can talk about some things. If you don't like what I am sharing with you - just don't read it. That's simple, right ?
But if you find something interesting on these topics please share with me and others here on the forum.
The importance of alpha and the switch into theta is the crucial one in OOBE, hypnosis, self-hypnosis, Silva Mind Control, and many others.
Theta activity and its strength during rest is strongly and positively related to hypnotic susceptibility, flexibility of the brain and is the most consistent EEG correlate of experiencing extraordinary states , incl. OOBEs.
Several studies have reexamined these relationships based on rigorous subject screening and control, along with enhanced recording and analytic techniques. Several researchers , Cutcomb, Crawford, and Pribram (1990) found highly hypnotizable persons to generate substantially more theta during rest than did low hypnotizable subjects during resting baseline.
The position which is most supported in the contemporary literature is a consistent pattern of EEG activity which can differentiate individuals according to their brainwaves scores.
This baseline individual difference is an important neuropsychophysiological indicator of hypnotizability and flexibility of the brain.
Jan
#41 · Oct 29, 2002, 09:09 · napoleon
I excpect that we can talk about some things. If you don't like what I am sharing with you - just don't read it. That's simple, right ?
But if you find something interesting on these topics please share with me and others here on the forum.
The importance of alpha and the switch into theta is the crucial one in OOBE, hypnosis, self-hypnosis, Silva Mind Control, and many others.
Theta activity and its strength during rest is strongly and positively related to hypnotic susceptibility, flexibility of the brain and is the most consistent EEG correlate of experiencing extraordinary states , incl. OOBEs.
Several studies have reexamined these relationships based on rigorous subject screening and control, along with enhanced recording and analytic techniques. Several researchers , Cutcomb, Crawford, and Pribram (1990) found highly hypnotizable persons to generate substantially more theta during rest than did low hypnotizable subjects during resting baseline.
The position which is most supported in the contemporary literature is a consistent pattern of EEG activity which can differentiate individuals according to their brainwaves scores.
This baseline individual difference is an important neuropsychophysiological indicator of hypnotizability and flexibility of the brain.
Jan
#42 · Oct 29, 2002, 09:59 · Adrian
This is all very well and good, but these are just random samples.
Everyone will have different initial brainwave characteristics to start with, due e.g to lifestyle, and particularly sodium/pottasioum levels in the brain. Also such things as caffeine intake, smoking, alcohol and numerous other things will make a difference from person to person.
However , people can alter their base brainwave level by addressing the above factors, and also by meditation, use of e.g. BWGEN etc..
Robert Bruce tells me that hs has never known anyone fail to OBE sooner or later with practice and dedication.
Please watch what you are dogmatically claiming here - it is only a fraction of the complete truth, and it might discourage people unecessarily. The fact is, taking a snapshot from the street, as opposed to a long term Astral projection training are two entirely different things.
With best regards,
Adrian.
#43 · Oct 29, 2002, 11:00 · napoleon
What I am expecting from you guys is some documented research, some checked results and so forth. Rather than: I don't believe you, you are destroying my hopes, you are dogmatic, and so forth. Hey, calm down a little bit. I am not a researcher, not a scientist, so no need to feel threatened by what I am saying.
Adrian wrote about "iinitial brainwave characteristics to start with, due e.g to lifestyle, and particularly sodium/pottasioum levels in the brain."
But I am not talking about initial brainwave characteristic but about something much more stronger and more stable and called The Brainware Signature.
Each of us has his own unique BRAINWAVE SIGNATURE - and this is not based on a "snapshot from the street" as Adrian described but on very long research done by Anna Wise. She is probably one of the top experts in the world on EEG, brainwaves and altered states of mind. There is her book on www.amazon.com and is FASCINATING to read
(details about brainwaves, trainings,
brainwaves during OOBs,
brainwaves during samadhi states or religion extasy,
Zen monks' brainwaves,
catholic priests' brainwaves during prayer,
brainwaves of a kid who could see ghosts
and so forth)
What I understand by saying that the 65 % (or so) of population will never experience OOB is this: I assume that some small percentage from this group after the 300th attempt can get some results.
The rest of the folks in this group maybe will need 600 attempts before experiencing any results. So, from this point of view one can say that majority of people can experience "something".
But this is just a speculation from me. This is like saying: almost everybody can learn play piano but only very few will become real artists.
You see, the vast majority of designers/producers of the mind machines and tapes didn't bother to do any research, not even a damn "snapshot from the street." That's the problem, at least for the few of us.
Wishing you well
Jan
Jan
#44 · Oct 29, 2002, 11:12 · Tom
#45 · Oct 29, 2002, 11:53 · napoleon
You wrote:
"I am admitting that I am in the 65%. It is not a new admission, given that I have been trying since 1988. "
Well, I have been trying since 1990 ... and I am definitely in 65 % group, I have checked it on my EEG.
You wrote:
"Somehow I am doing something wrong."
In my opinion you doing fine, you need just help, the right help for those with rigid brainwaves and/or too strong alpha.
You:
"is there something that people like me might be able to do better with alpha than the other 35% can do?"
Definitely yes.
You can have strong alpha and try to strengthen theta in the same time. Your theta will PROBABLY never surpass your alpha but ... but if you have strong alpha + weaker theta (both synchronous) you can access the Zen monks meditative state, you can do self-healing or even try healing others.
After longer practice it can lead you toward astral realms in deep sense of these words. However the path is quite long. To speed up this process you should either buy tapes with alpha freq. or get the brainwave generator and design the session yourself. Get the alpha synchronous first. Then add theta and run the two freq. simultanously. The problem with majority of tapes is: they go either directly or very quickly into theta. This is not for folks like me and you. We need a gradual approach, step by step, first higher alpha, then mid alpha, then deeper alpha and so forth.
Remember,
We are not the "fast-lane drivers" into the astral realm as are those with stronger theta.
There are also other techniques, specifically design for those with rigid brainwaves/strong alpha. But I will not tell them as I don't want to fire all my ammo in the first exchange of fire
In my opinion you should first do some research on brainwaves, get some books, and the right tapes/eqipment and start. But again, small stapes and not a jump into very deeeep frequencies - which although are very attractive will bring you NO RESULTS for many many years.
If you have EEG just check what is your dominant frequency. Probably is about 10 herz....
Then get tape with this freq. or design your own program using this req.
Your brain will become familiar with this state and with sinchronisation. Then lower the treshold to 9.5 herz, experiment with this for a while, get familiar.
After time go to 9 herz or 8.5 - here you will experience nice body sensation or some visuals. Then add weak theta and let your brain get familiar with it.
With training you will be able to increase the theta...gradually while having alpha too.
With the very gradual strengthening of your weak theta your strong alpha will be softened and weaker. That's all you need man !
The other option is listening to the theta/delta tapes 800 times before somebody will tell you that you trying not hard enough.
Jan
#46 · Oct 29, 2002, 12:11 · Adrian
You still are still generalising far too much in my opinion
The brainwaves of each and every person vary during the day - probably considerably.
And I have consulted Robert Bruce on this discussion - Robert has helped thousands of people over a great many years on OBE related subjects, and has quite literally seen every possible case. Robert clearly states that anyone can OBE with practice - and Robert, above all, will know.
Sure, I would concede that some people have more natural tendencies than others, but like everything, if you practice enough you can get there.
Brainwave entrainment is progressive, and as far as I can tell it is permanent, and that is clearly an important factor to consider. Such entrainment can be accomplished through daily meditation and, for example BWGEN - which I believe is a very valuable tool for many people - probably the best overall brainwave entrainment tool there is - and free or nearly free.
Tom is also correct when he states that it is more likely to be the people that have these abilities,or latent abilities that will be drawn to it in the first place. The vast majority of mankind, as yet, has never heard of the Astral or OBE, much less sought the abilities. Universal laws are perfect because they were designed and created by perfection, and such laws take everything into account.
With best regards,
Adrian.
#47 · Oct 29, 2002, 14:02 · Tom
#48 · Oct 29, 2002, 14:16 · napoleon
BWGEN as probably "the best overall brainwave entrainment tool there" ?
Hmm. I use it for 1 month, every single day, and had not one OOB.
Should I try it for 12 months more ?
You wrote:
"Tom is also correct when he states that it is more likely to be the people that have these abilities,or latent abilities that will be drawn to it in the first place."
So what about those of us visiting this forum, or those attempting OOB for many many years, who never actually experined it for themselves ?
It is frustrating to be drawn here, read about all the super extraordinanry astral adventures and don't have your own.
You wrote:
"Robert clearly states that anyone can OBE with practice - and Robert, above all, will know."
This sounds cool and keeps my hope alive.
Wishing you well
Jan
Jan
#49 · Oct 29, 2002, 15:07 · Adrian
I suspect your biggest block from OBE is not brainwaves, but your attitude.
In order to experience OBE you must approach it with a postive attitude. All I have seen from you is a negative attitude, and that is your problem I reckon.
With best regards,
Adrian.
#50 · Oct 29, 2002, 16:02 · Tom
#51 · Oct 29, 2002, 18:48 · fredhedd
#52 · Oct 29, 2002, 20:59 · Jeff_Mash
quote:Hi Jan....
Originally posted by napoleon:
So what about those of us visiting this for me, or those attempting OOB for many many years, who never actually experined it for themselves ?
It is frustrating to be drawn here, read about all the super extraordinanry astral adventures and don't have your own.
Let me ask you, do you get frustrated watching "Cribs" or "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous?"
In those shows, we are shown how lavish and carefree the homes and lives of celebrities really are....... even though we may never actually attain that kind of status ourselves. I'm sure you don't watch that show and get frustrated, do you?
However, it would be just as ridiculous for me to tell you, "Here is why you'll never be rich." Sure, it may be a struggle to earn a 6 figure income, but would I discourage you from attaining that? Of course not. For some people, it's easier to earn a lot of money, because they have trained in their fields and professions for such a goal.
Others of us haven't had that much training, but we have seen poor people who have worked at what they love, gone to school to acquire the appropriate skills, and now we've seen them earn the 6 figure salary that they only dreamed about. The only thing that kept them moving forward was the fact that they knew it was possible!
I don't need to explain the analogy and how it applies to those who would like to learn how to project......I can tell you're a smart individual and you can see the parallels that I'm drawing.
If I can reassure you of anything, it would be this. I know that ANYONE can project,because I can do it! I was just like so many of you out there who STRIVED to have one but nothing ever happened. I can't explain why, all of the sudden, they started to occur with me one evening, but once they did, I knew that anything was possible.....and that if a moron like me could work at it and eventually do it, then you can too. You just have to believe it's possible, no matter what you're head tells you otherwise.
Keep smiling,
Jeff Mash
MyJokeMail.com - Jokes and Humor
http://myjokemail.com
#53 · Oct 29, 2002, 21:55 · napoleon
I spent almost every evening doing my OOB exercises or listen to a hemi-sync tape.
I am still optimistic about what I am doing, and not giving up, and tomorrow will be my 6.783th attempt. Sometimes in the evening I also read what the masters and ghurus have to say about OOB.
But I love humor (and black humor too) so I will visit your website, it sounds interesting.
Jan
Jan
#54 · Oct 30, 2002, 02:24 · SPASTRAL
I will start this as a new thread as this one is getting a bit long....Also, maybe people will lighten up a bit too?!?::
Napoleon, practising and achieving OOBE is hard enough without the threat of never sucessfully doing it. What was the purpose of your thread? where is the constructive side to counter the negative? Do you realise that people want to do this so badly, they would stick thier head down the toilet an hour a day if they thought it would help.
We should disregard the research, it is a small study, and will not reflect true percentages. for those who are trying (but not yet succeeded)
When I first found out about AP, it was considered to be a massive occult phenominon and was not widely accepted on a scientific level, now everyone is talking about the scientific aspects, and forgetting the basic fundaments: AP is a privilidge and is a key to spiritual enlightenment that we should respect and keep in perspective. If one never manages to project, the benefits of the meditation and preparation work are massive to our mental health, for that we should be grateful alone.
As an alternative to the BW generator, I have an astral.WAV file which I have paid $20 for. Adrian, is there a possability of hosting such files and utilities here. This would allow people to get even more from an already brilliant site. I started a thread and offered people a copy of this, I have already had around 10 emails asking me to forward it on.
#55 · Oct 30, 2002, 05:12 · Lysear
Lysear
#56 · Oct 30, 2002, 06:32 · napoleon
Spastral wrote:
"I will start this as a new thread as this one is getting a bit long....Also, maybe people will lighten up a bit too?!?::
"
There is nothing wrong with long threads I think. Quick switching from one topic to another with only 1-2 posts in threads is rather not for me. I think we are doing fine, I have GREAT interest in your responses and am having good time.
"What was the purpose of your thread?"
Read one of my my previous posts.
"Do you realise that people want to do this so badly, they would stick thier head down the toilet an hour a day if they thought it would help."
) No excrement.
)
Do you think that guy like me who tried for many years doesn't belong to this group of people ?
I am one of you folks, heh heh.
Wishing you well
Jan
ps. guys, maybe instead of moaning how hurtful the title of this thread is for you, and other trivias, you give us some good "recipe" for a successul OOB.
For everyone.
But please without the "try harder" and "be positive". I am hard like a wood and have a big smile glued to my face...all the time.
Jan
#57 · Oct 30, 2002, 08:34 · Jeff_Mash
quote:Hi Jan....I'm glad to see that you're still keeping an open mind about it. You know, the first time I had an OBE was when I stopped trying and just decided to go to sleep. Ironic, huh? Maybe you've already done this, but just tell yourself, "Ok Jan, for the next 7 days, I am NOT going to try and OBE. I'll just read about them and hear from others, but when I lay down at night, I am just trying to go to sleep. If I catch myself trying to do any techniques for the next 7 days, I will stop."
Originally posted by napoleon:
Jeff, sorry to disappoint you. I don't watch "Cribs" or "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous" - simply I don't have time for this.
I spent almost every evening doing my OOB exercises or listen to a hemi-sync tape.
I am still optimistic about what I am doing, and not giving up, and tomorrow will be my 6.783th attempt. Sometimes in the evening I also read what the masters and ghurus have to say about OOB.
After all, if you're doing everything that you think is right and you're still not projecting, what could it hurt to try the complete opposite?
quote:Oh, then you'll LOVE MyJokeMail! Especially the new Kid Drawings section.
But I love humor (and black humor too) so I will visit your website, it sounds interesting.
Keep smiling,
Jeff Mash
MyJokeMail.com - Jokes and Humor
http://myjokemail.com
#58 · Oct 30, 2002, 09:53 · napoleon
)))
bravo !
Jan
#59 · Oct 30, 2002, 10:26 · Adrian
Yes, it is the negativity this topic that is the main issue. As I mentioned before - in order to OBE you must have a postive attitude towards it, otherwise your subconscious will stop you every time - no matter how hard or many times you try. You have to tell your subconscious that you will project, and go about it accordingly.
Here are another few words by Robert Bruce:
" a lot of controlled obe's were done under lab
conditions with a variety of volunteers, including Robert Monroe. It was
found that the majority of successful obe's (projectors had to read random
numbers in another room) projected in a light alpha state, not a deep alpha
or theta state, ascertained by eeg readings and etc.. I think they had a
12 year old girl who got a 10 out of 10 success rate. .
That speaks for itself.
The fact is - anyone at all can succeed at the various forms of Astral projection, it just takes longer for those that are not naturally inclined, and also a positive attitude , proper information, and lots of practice. It is however a progressive ability, and once learned can be reliable - so the effort is well worth it - what else is worth more effort?
Spastral:
quote:Thanks for your kind offer! First and foremost you would need to check the copyright. I am not saying there is a problem with your file, but please realise that I would never allow anything here that broke any laws.
As an alternative to the BW generator, I have an astral.WAV file which I have paid $20 for. Adrian, is there a possability of hosting such files and utilities here. This would allow people to get even more from an already brilliant site. I started a thread and offered people a copy of this, I have already had around 10 emails asking me to forward it on.
If the copyright is OK we can do one of three things:
1) Create a section in the File library for you to upload the file to.
2) You can (and not many people realise this) attach it to a forum post. Yu should see an "Attach File" option under the message area when you post.
3) I will place it on the server for people to download with their browsers.
Please let me know what you would like to do.
With best regards,
Adrian.
#60 · Oct 30, 2002, 18:49 · wierdzly
1. As your falling asleep it reminds you of what your goals are and how it will go.
2. It breaks the chains of negative, self defeating, in the rut thinking that has been programmed by you and your environment.
3. It's also a form of hypnosis. As you are falling to sleep you become more susceptable to suggestions.
4. A refreshing break from brainwave and meditation.
The tape now available in cd form is available at http://www.out-of-body.com/
I think you still have to buy it with the 4 tape set. Still inexpensive compared to others.
WEIRDZLY!
#61 · Oct 31, 2002, 14:31 · OahnMacleod
I think napoleon stated in the first post (Sorry for my poor English) and with that, I kept thinking as I read (his?) posts thereafter that it wasn't so much negativity as it was practicality and reality on (his?) part?
My impression of foreigners in general is that they are not as spoiled in America with an attitude of you can simply DO EVERYTHING you want whenever you fancy. I think some countries are more disciplined and more realistic of the world THEY live in. Heck, to grow up in a socialist or communist country would give you a HELL of a lot different perspective to the possibilities you have in life. I think America is a progressive place to live as far as exploring as many religious and spiritual studies as you want without having to suffer dire social consequences for doing so.
I believe in China and Russia, the bible and christianity were banned for many years. In India, you could be subject to a caste system if you are of any worth and the rules that govern it. In the Islamic countries, can you question the possibilities of other spiritual paths as well without being an infidel? And don't forget the power that church and religious organizations can have on someone and screw up their thinking because of dogmatic practices. Because of those spiritual dogmatic influences, (and that includes MANY people in the USA, ahem catholics). you would be too fearful to think outside the confines of your church, lest you go to hell. So napoleon might be correct to a degree. Some people WILL never get this stuff, no matter how hard they try, until they address those mental, spiritual or emotional blocks they have already programmed in their mind preventing them from success in this arena.
I hope I am not off-base here but at best, if napoleon, (or I for that matter), is to be criticized, please let it because of simply being misinformed. And please correct us both from a place that we are on the same team, we are all seekers of truth.
Namaste,
Oahn
#62 · Oct 31, 2002, 15:20 · Jacara
There's certainly a place for staying realistic, and I appreciate lots of the discussion that's happened in this thread. But it started on the wrong foot I think because it was pessimistic to the point of being untrue (as I believe the consensus is that even the "65%" with brainwaves that aren't naturally conducive to trance can still learn to achieve trance, with practice).
#63 · Oct 31, 2002, 16:50 · Tom
#64 · Oct 31, 2002, 21:14 · napoleon
ps 1 - . I come from Europe, you may call me Janis
ps 2 - Yes, maybe the title of my original post should be more refined, but at least it grabbed your attention , he heh, you sweet Americans
ps 3 - OahnMacleod wrote something very interesting, he is so right
Jan
#65 · Oct 31, 2002, 21:55 · napoleon
"Researcher Toman confirmed the work of Loomis, Harvey and Hobart which showed that people with strong alpha frequencies had a poor range of entrainment to stimulation and those with little or no alpha rhythms could be entrained to a wider range of frequencies including the theta."
I told you.
"G. Oster published an excellent article on the effects of binaural beats (BB) in Scientific American (1973). He showed the difference between monaural beats (MB) and binaural beats. He demonstrated that binaural beats produced much smaller results than that of monaural beats and concluded that binaural beats have almost no brainwave entrainment value but could be beneficial in diagnosing certain neurological disorders such as Parkinson's Disease."
The binaural beats are used on tapes from Monroe Institute.
"In 1995, in Northwestern University was collected the research on brainwave entrainment using photic stimulation. They found that some persons entrained to the stimulus and ....... others didn't."
Jan
#66 · Nov 01, 2002, 03:49 · fredhedd
hell of a good site if it was possible though