#0 · Sep 23, 2002, 10:14 · Gus

Hi,

Once ~10 years back I had the experience of affecting the physical world in OBE. This happened unintentionally.
I with my brother were watcing a movie in the TV and the room light was turned off. While watching the movie I almost fell asleep, but was still seeing the movie. Then in the movie there was a scene where a man turns on the room light. In this moment my consciousness was affected almost only by the movie and this scene created a strong thought that the light must be turned on. Sure! Immediately, in a fraction of the second I experienced the OBE - a very fast flight to the room light on/off switch on the wall (distance ~3m), turned it on and was back in my body. Brother: "Who turned on the light???"

This happened for real!

Questions/comments are welcome.

#1 · Sep 23, 2002, 13:37 · Jeff_Mash

Yes, I do believe that one can affect the physical world while out of body, although I have not been able to do so.  Robert Monroe had mentioned in one of his books how he actually PINCHED a female friend of his while he was projecting.  Not only did she feel the pinch, but she even had a little bruise from the experience!

Other projectors have tried to move objects, such as a pencil balancing on end, or blowing out a candle.  For me, personally, I really have no desire to try and affect anything on the physical when I am out.  I tend to be more focused on the non-physical things, like learning and finding simpler ways to focus my mind on something to faciliate the projection process.

Keep smiling,

Jeff Mash, Founder and Editor
MyJokeMail.com - Jokes and Humor
http://myjokemail.com

#2 · Sep 23, 2002, 14:39 · Gus

Maybe the clue is that I forgot that I can't do such things:)

If I could repeat this I could get million dollars:)
See: http://host.randi.org/research/

#3 · Sep 23, 2002, 15:21 · Jeff_Mash

The thing about James Randi's offer is this.  For me, trying to influence something on the physical realm while I'm out of body is like trying to prove I can breathe underwater when no one is watching.

First and foremost, I've heard a lot of people say, "OBE is a very spiritual thing.  I would never exploit it for money, because I'm above that."  Well, let me be the honest doofus and say that if I could prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that I could move physical objects while OOB for one million dollars, I would do it without a second thought.  Hell, with that much money, I could devote more time to study these things more.

However, here is why that will never happen (at least for me).  To achieve an OBE at will, because YOU want to, is very hard to do.  To achieve an OBE because SOMEONE ELSE wants you to is even harder.  So assuming that you can achieve an OBE whenever anyone wants, that still doesn't solve your problem.

You see, the non-physical world isn't always as "stable" as this physical world.  You may project to the same place twice and see entirely different things.  This is because a lot of what you perceive in the astral realm is based on your emotions and your state of mind.  Someone who is calm and relaxed may have a peaceful experience.  Someone who just finished watching "Hellraiser" may enounter something more terrifying.

Do you realize that there are still people in this world (living in very advanced societies) who still subscribe to the theory that the Earth is flat?  The point being that some people will remain unconvinced of something when their mind is made up.  And since I am not a projector to prove to a skeptic the reality of my experiences, I simply ignore the bait that they try to wave in front of me.

No sense in wasting time for a worldly gain when there is so much more to learn when out of body.  Bottom line: if I'm out of body and I have a chance to interact with my guide, or be a guinea pig for some skeptic, I'll be cruising with my guide in his Mustang!

Keep smiling,

Jeff Mash, Founder and Editor
MyJokeMail.com - Jokes and Humor
http://myjokemail.com

#4 · Sep 23, 2002, 17:46 · Gus

The fact that nobody has been able to prove ANY paranormal abilities makes me very sceptical too about others claims. All of them have been proved to be tricks.
Considering this, isn't it normal to not believe? It's stupid to believe without a proof.
quote:
First and foremost, I've heard a lot of people say, "OBE is a very spiritual thing. I would never exploit it for money, because I'm above that."
I think not because of money, they simply are afraid of not being able to prove it and don't want to look as idiots and get bad reputation - that's the real cause.
quote:
You see, the non-physical world isn't always as "stable" as this physical world. You may project to the same place twice and see entirely different things.
That's obviously not real OBE.
quote:
To achieve an OBE because SOMEONE ELSE wants you to is even harder.
Stress?
quote:
And since I am not a projector to prove to a skeptic the reality of my experiences, I simply ignore the bait that they try to wave in front of me.
That's right.

Regards,
Gustavs

#5 · Sep 24, 2002, 01:11 · wierdzly

The fact that nobody has been able to prove ANY paranormal abilities makes me very sceptical too about others claims. All of them have been proved to be tricks.
Considering this, isn't it normal to not believe? It's stupid to believe without a proof


http://www.openmindsciences.com/hbo-exp.htm

One persons proof is anothers denial.

Don't believe anything from the Randi Organization. I have seen many examples of their outright lies. Their is also a million dollar reward for anyone able to prove in the non existance of anything paranormal. No one has been able to collect the money for over 2 years.

WEIRDZLY!

#6 · Sep 24, 2002, 02:57 · clandestino

Hi Gus,

I think that there is a general consensus amongst people who have had several OBE's that the physical world is subject to fluctuations when viewed in the real time zone. These fluctuations are a result of the projector's active imagination wandering...

e.g. you might project in your living room, and notice that your TV has gone, and the door opens the other way.

#7 · Sep 24, 2002, 06:17 · Gus

quote:
One persons proof is anothers denial.
Of course, the proof must be reliable. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
It's easy to fool people if they just want to believe.
quote:
Don't believe anything from the Randi Organization. I have seen many examples of their outright lies.
Randi doesn't claims to have any paranormal abilities. He has done a good work with debunking the charlatans.
quote:
Their is also a million dollar reward for anyone able to prove in the non existance of anything paranormal. No one has been able to collect the money for over 2 years.
It's impossible to prove the non existance of ANYTHING not proved otherwise! A good joke :)
quote:
clandestino: I think that there is a general consensus amongst people who have had several OBE's that the physical world is subject to fluctuations when viewed in the real time zone. These fluctuations are a result of the projector's active imagination wandering...
I don't agree that these are real OBEs.

Regards,
Gustavs

#8 · Sep 24, 2002, 09:38 · Jeff_Mash

quote:
Originally posted by Gus:
The fact that nobody has been able to prove ANY paranormal abilities makes me very sceptical too about others claims. All of them have been proved to be tricks.
Considering this, isn't it normal to not believe? It's stupid to believe without a proof.
Before I had any OBE's to speak of, I was a skeptic.  However, my mentality as a skeptic was this.  "Even though I haven't had an out of body experience, I believe that it's possible.  So while I can't say for sure that they are real, I want to try and see for myself."

It was this "anything is possible" attitude which allowed me to remove any Preconceived notions about the existence of OBE's, and experience one for myself.  It's a shame that a lot of skeptics automatically assume that things like this are not possible, because those kinds of attitudes will only hinder them in their quest for answers.

Bottom line: there is a difference between skeptics who want to PROVE that OBE's are real, and those who want to prove that they are not.  Being skeptic is a good thing, because it allows you to question things.
quote:
quote:
First and foremost, I've heard a lot of people say, "OBE is a very spiritual thing. I would never exploit it for money, because I'm above that."
I think not because of money, they simply are afraid of not being able to prove it and don't want to look as idiots and get bad reputation - that's the real cause.
That's not THE real cause, but that certainly is A real cause.  There are many reasons why a person may not want to be tested, and fear of failure is definetely a big one.  However, saying it's only because of one thing is a bad assumption, especially coming from a person who may not have had any OBE's in the first place.  =)
quote:
quote:
You see, the non-physical world isn't always as "stable" as this physical world. You may project to the same place twice and see entirely different things.
That's obviously not real OBE.
That obviously was a ridiculous statement!  Either your knowledge/experience with OBE's is fairly limited, or you left your brain at the door when you logged in.  j/k
quote:
quote:
To achieve an OBE because SOMEONE ELSE wants you to is even harder.
Stress?
Yes, I think stress and fear of failure, most likely.  Again, these can be very hard to do when you're alone.  So trying to do them when you know other people are monitoring you could be enough mental baggage to stop any experiences from happening.

For example, if I told you to walk on a 6" narrow ledge which is suspended six feet in the air, you might be a little nervous of falling, but you could do it.  Now if someone took that same ledge, raised it 110 stories into the air, and then told you to walk it, how would you feel?  It's the same ledge, but the conditions are now different.

Keep smiling,

Jeff Mash
MyJokeMail.com - Jokes and Humor
http://myjokemail.com

#9 · Sep 24, 2002, 15:44 · Gus

quote:
That's not THE real cause, but that certainly is A real cause. There are many reasons why a person may not want to be tested, and fear of failure is definetely a big one. However, saying it's only because of one thing is a bad assumption, especially coming from a person who may not have had any OBE's in the first place. =)
Agree
quote:
That obviously was a ridiculous statement! Either your knowledge/experience with OBE's is fairly limited, or you left your brain at the door when you logged in. j/k
I don't think so. In real OBE you must actually be Out Of Body and see the world as it is, not imagined.

virtual OBE = real OBE? What's the difference?

Regards,
Gustavs

#10 · Sep 24, 2002, 16:26 · Jacara

I think the theory behind it is something like this:
When you're having an OBE, you're in the Real-Time Zone, which isn't the physical world, but it's the "layer" of the Astral that's closest to it, so it very closely resembles it.  But since it is still the Astral, it's subject to the viewer's thoughts / imagination / beliefs, etc.

Althought I don't know how anyone would know this for sure, but that probably seems the best explanation based on everyone's experiences.

#11 · Sep 24, 2002, 17:02 · Jeff_Mash

quote:
Originally posted by Gus:
I don't think so. In real OBE you must actually be Out Of Body and see the world as it is, not imagined.

virtual OBE = real OBE? What's the difference?
Jacara has the right idea.  You see, Gus....when a person goes out of their body, things aren't always as cut-and-dry as you'd like to think.  Think of reality (all forms of reality) like an onion.  Each layer you peel looks similiar to the one before that, but not exactly the same.  The astral realm can be compared to this.  The higher up you go (or vibrate), the less you'll recognize things in the real time zone.

When you project, you're already vibrating at a much higher frequency than the physical world.  So when you project into the real time zone, you may THINK that you're seeing the physical world, but you're probably seeing a thin, onion layer right above it.  The computer monitor which you're reading this message doesn't only exist in this physical world.  It exists on a multitude of dimensions.  While projecting, you may see the computer monitor as it exists on that other layer, not necessarily this one.  Some may disagree with this, but I would think that a lot of experienced projectors would agree with that statement.

You also have to take into account that your mind can influence your experience.  You seem to think that if your mind creates something while out of body, then it isn't real.  The only reason why you think the computer monitor is real is because your mind is telling you that it is.  There are surgical procedures that can be done to remove parts of your brain which would detach yourself from reality.  You wouldn't know the difference between a computer and a skunk.

My point is that like the physical realm, you're mind plays a big part in your experience while OBE, because you take it with you when you're out.  Your mind still translates things it sees into something that you can understand.  You're not looking at physical things but ENERGETIC things, so your mind has to take that energy and interpret it into something that you recognize/understand.

To say that a true OBE is one that only takes place in the verifiable physical world (and everything else is not a true OBE) is so absurd, it makes me want to chop off my head.

Out of curiousity, how many OBE's have you had?  I only ask, because some of your statements seem to be based on your own philosophy of what you've put together from books and literature...not necessarily from experience.  I'm not here to say anyone is right or wrong, but I am speaking from my own personal experience, and it's definetely clashing with what you're saying.

I'm curious to see what others (Frank, Adrian, Patty, Tish, etc.) has to say.

Keep smiling,

Jeff Mash
MyJokeMail.com - Jokes and Humor
http://myjokemail.com

#12 · Sep 25, 2002, 05:53 · Gus

Your explanation is OK, but unfortunately it cannot be proved.

I have experienced just one real OBE.

Regards,
Gustavs

http://www.sustainedaction.org/Explorations/being_critical_of_obe.htm
http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mastral.html

#13 · Sep 25, 2002, 06:26 · amcturbo

quote:
Originally posted by Jeff_Mash:
Think of reality (all forms of reality) like an onion.  Each layer you peel looks similiar to the one before that, but not exactly the same.  The astral realm can be compared to this.

When you project, you're already vibrating at a much higher frequency than the physical world.  So when you project into the real time zone, you may THINK that you're seeing the physical world, but you're probably seeing a thin, onion layer right above it.  The computer monitor which you're reading this message doesn't only exist in this physical world.  It exists on a multitude of dimensions.  While projecting, you may see the computer monitor as it exists on that other layer, not necessarily this one.
Jeff,
You've made some excellent points, hopefully clarifying for Gus what "really" occurs on the Astral.  Your usage of the computer monitor is an excellent analogy to which I can directly relate an OBE-TYPE experience to ... that experience being ASTRAL VISION.

Occasionally at lunch time, here at work, I'll listen to a Holosync demo for relaxation.  Well, one day, I am leaning back in my desk chair, in front of my monitor WHICH IS ON, and find myself getting real comfy ... really relaxed.  Anyhow, I suddenly get a visual and I am looking at my monitor WHICH IS NOW OFF.  Now for the real interesting part ... Standing right behind me and to my left, is a lady who appears all white, but not really glowing.  Not expecting this, I was startled back to consciousness.  I then decided to "mentally" imagine myself turning around and giving her a gift box.  As she opened it, she pulled out a floppy fleece hat and was excited.  The very next day, I was again relaxing to the Holosync demo, get really comfy, again had Astral Vision and saw my monitor screen (OFF AGAIN in the Astral) and the lady was behind me and to the right, waving to get my attention.

Gus, if you're not sure what Astral Vision is, it is a pre-OBE symptom where your MIND'S EYE (what you "see" with while OBE) begins to see the Astral BEFORE you have left your body AND while your physical eyes are closed.

Lastly, Gus, I think your experience of turning on the light switch is an amazing account of what is REALLY POSSIBLE during OBEs.  The fact that you've done it once, means that you CAN do it again ... AND that if you CAN do it ... then anyone can DO IT, too.

Cheers!
Greg Taylor :)

"Whatever consciousness may be, it's not a small thing" - Ingo Swann
"Oh, I... ain't got no ... body" - David Lee Roth (Van Halen)

#14 · Sep 25, 2002, 07:59 · AndrewTheSinger

'There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle.'  -- Albert Einstein

Look at the planet where you live, 1 among zillions of others, in a solar system in the middle of a cluster of galaxies. We can breath here, drink the water, eat, and there's a star up there that sends us light and heat, there are not many places like this in the universe. I know, a little off topic, but there's magic in it all.

The word 'unreal' has no meaning to me, cause everything I see is real in it's own way.

#15 · Sep 25, 2002, 08:42 · Jeff_Mash

quote:
Originally posted by Gus:
Your explanation is OK, but unfortunately it cannot be proved.
You're probably right.  I can't prove it scientifically, but through experience, I hope to solidify this theory within myself.  With each experience that a person has, it shapes their entire outlook on 'what happens when we project.'

For example, I think a lot of experienced projectors have at one point questioned themselves, "Are all of these just some very, VERY realistic dreams?"  I know I've sometimes wondered that.  But then you start to add up all the charcteristics of these wonderful experiences, and you realize that you aren't 'dreaming.'  You're more awake, alive, and conscious than you ever could have been in the physical world.

This layer theory that I suggested wasn't invented by me....it's something I've read about from many experienced projectors.  And based on my own experiences, it seems to make sense and hold some credibility.  Maybe once you get some more OBE's under your belt, you'll see the same thing.  Or maybe you will be able to offer us some other perspective that we've never seen before.  That's the beauty of this whole thing.  We're all in this learning game together.

Keep smiling,

Jeff Mash
MyJokeMail.com - Jokes and Humor
http://myjokemail.com

#16 · Sep 25, 2002, 16:11 · Jacara

It seems to me that if you want to come close to actually proving this, then get multiple people to have OBEs at the same time and meet each other.  If some of them experienced things that were a bit different than reality, but were still at the gathering, that would indicate that OBEs don't always reflect reality 100%.  {Whereas if the ones who thought they were there - but weren't seen by the others - had different experiences of the meeting, that would indicate that their OBE either took place elsewhere or was dreamt}

Anyway, I can certainly see Gus's point of wanting to know that his OBEs are valid even when they don't match the real world.  But for him to suggest that because something can't be proven it's not real, is also close-minded.  The phrase "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence," comes to mind.

#17 · Sep 25, 2002, 17:07 · Patty

Well, I didn't even open this thread until today. I read the title "Affecting the physical world in OBE" and thought "Not likely. why bother reading? "

Then when I saw the topic was on it's second page I figured there was some real discussion going on.

Hey Gus,

You would likely enjoy the skeptic's board at FACTS:

http://unfacts.org/cgi-bin/index.pl

especially if you surf for a few days before jumping in (hotheaded group).

I don't really have much to add here. You want my opinion? If the sort of OBE that you, Gus, are talking about (a reproducible 'on-demand'  ability to project to an exact replica of the physical world) existed, then it would have been demonstrated a long time ago.

If on the other hand, our occasional experiences 'out of body' represent something like a spiritual existence separate from the physical body, then (as different as that existence may be from physical life)  we can hopefully make some sense of that existence through these experiences.

I've had dozens of presumed OBE's personally. Every time that I try to verify these experiences, I get a 'close hit.'  I never get an 'exact hit.'  I always do better than you expect by chance, though. So yeah, I think there's a reasonable possibility that I really am in something like an 'onion layer' of the physical world, seeing a distortion of what is in the physical world.  I've recorded a few of these experiences on past pages here:

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=&TOPIC_ID=1360

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=&TOPIC_ID=1314

I don't draw any conclusions from these OBEs, but I do keep a running tally in a file. (in my 'playing card' experiment, I have gotten results that you expect by chance one time in eight. Not overwhelming, but nice to have that in addition to the very real 'feel' of the OBE.)

I have a hard time understanding how you could affect a light switch, but hey. I had some weird things when I was younger, too.

Patty

#18 · Sep 26, 2002, 05:20 · Gus

But hey! How could you move your body without affecting/communicating with the physical world? - at least some two-way physical connection must exist.

Thanks for a good link.

Gustavs

#19 · Sep 26, 2002, 13:16 · Patty

Presumably we're not projecting into the physical world per se. That's the onion idea.

Or else we ARE projecting into the physical world but can't affect it because we are not physical ourselves.  A fascinating idea that raises more questions than answers.

As near as I can figure, ideas/thoughts/etc are 'seen' while OBE, so a direct analogy to physical world does not work in any case.

Some physicists postulate that other universes exist in the same space as our own (or are just a small space away.) This is very tangential, but might be a better analogy when trying to postulate what projection MIGHT be.  Search for the 'ekpyrotic' model  (an alternative view to the 'big bang) and if you read enough about it you start to get the idea that different types of existence can all 'be' in a very small space.

Sorry for the garbled jargon, I'm not a physicist!

You're welcome for the link.

Patty

#20 · Sep 26, 2002, 13:35 · Frank

quote:
I'm curious to see what others (Frank, Adrian, Patty, Tish, etc.) has to say.

Keep smiling,

Jeff Mash
MyJokeMail.com - Jokes and Humor
http://myjokemail.com
I, like Patty, only just opened the thread out of sheer curiosity as a result of thinking, "Hmm, that's getting a bit long." Then I realised there had been something of a debate going on. :)

As you are curious, Jeff, I think your posts have answered just about everything to the extent where I've got nothing really to add (like the onion analogy BTW).

Yours,
Frank

#21 · Sep 26, 2002, 14:02 · WalkerInTheWoods

I like the onion analogy. Have you been watching Shrek or do you just like onions? http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile_approve.gif" border=0>

#22 · Sep 26, 2002, 16:14 · Jeff_Mash

quote:
Originally posted by fallnangel77:
I like the onion analogy. Have you been watching Shrek or do you just like onions? http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile_approve.gif" border=0>
I love that movie!  I just thought of an onion though when I was thinking of layers, that's all. http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile_big.gif" border=0>

Keep smiling,

Jeff Mash
MyJokeMail.com - Jokes and Humor
http://myjokemail.com

#23 · Sep 26, 2002, 16:17 · Patty

Personally, I like a nice parfait.

Patty

#24 · Sep 30, 2002, 18:19 · fredhedd

i belive it would be perfectly reasonable to say that the physical could be affected by oobe.  i believe it's already pretty much a known fact that the physical and astral worlds have always been affecting each other.  we exist right now on more than just the physical, and from where we are now, we can affect the astral.  putting aside the huge debate of what is meant when we say 'i' or 'me', if we were born in the astral and found a way to project into the physical, maybe we'd all be talking about how crazy it would be to affect the the astral from the physical.  this is something we already know can happen.

also i believe that maybe the astral shouldnt be so seperated from the physical.  we're all just so used to only being in the physical and only knowing about the physical that it maybe seperates existance as a whole.  all of existance....exists. maybe  the different levels of existance have been made into levels,  just to make for better comprehension.  i think of it as more it's all one level and we're just where we are, whenever we're there.

an outlook like this would probably also help in projecting, in knowing that the astral is not far at all, but right there (here).

maybe

#25 · Oct 03, 2002, 18:42 · Major Tom

Part for the problem about proofing these things is that it's easy to underestimate the amount of experimenting and practicing that even an experienced OBE'er has to invest in to really proof to him or herself that it is possible to affect the physical or possible to experience RTZ as an exact replica on a consistent basis. Let's say you got around a 1000 OBE's on your name with a frequency of twice a week. How many OBE-time would you be willing to invest to train either ability without really knowing it is possible in the first place? It would probably take around 20 OBE's to get a little bit of an idea whether it might be possible. That's 3 months of potentially wasted time. Those kind of calculations start to count at one point when there are so many interesting things to explore with relatively little OBE time.

MajorTom

#26 · Oct 07, 2002, 20:40 · weagle

robert bruce said to prove you're having a obe in real time zone is to take a card randomly from a deck of cards and put it somewhere you'll see when you obe then verify if the card is right and even though it's not 100% the real world it's still a realtimezone obe not a virtual one.

When people do obe what I noticed is there is some sort of energy form/frequency field because when they obe near me I can hear my left ear go into high pitch for a few seconds when they're near me so thats another way of proving it.

Another thing if one just has astral sight and is in their body then chances are what you see is 100% real it's when one disconnects from the body is when the fluctuations happen.  Don't know if I can verify this but I think astral sight within the confines of your body does not fluctuate you see it as it is.

I think also in time and practice when one meditates raises their energy level they may start to see less fluctuations and more of the physical world.

Another interesting note just how our minds like to filter things out its own way, for example we had two identical businessess then one recently closed down and one worker moved to the other one, I obe'd this time the two workers were there BUT they were in the location that was closed, because I used to visit and work at that old place my mind was used to the closed down place because I was there all the time assuming this was a obe
and not a virtual one.  Thats another interesting note if you obe the people may actually be there but just the surroundings maybe totally different but that doesn't mean you didn't obe your mind didn't filter the information properly for the surroundings but for seeing the people it's always right?