#0 · Jun 20, 2005, 22:46 · Telos

I always thought it was hypocritical to take someone who committed suicide - someone who potentially reached the lowest point of life possible - and then tinkle on their grave with condemnation. In other words the fanatics who say suicides are evil mortal sinners seem to take delight in pointing out the suffering of people and saying, "yes, indeed they are suffering, shame on them."

But I digress.

I just heard word of someone my age committing suicide. I thought, "good for him!" Obviously, I bite my tongue in real life, but not here.

Suicides are  nothing new. But why do I always hear it buttressed with debasing highfalutin snobbery... that the person was "mental", "screwed up" and "not right." Regardless of your religion or personal ethics or the actual mental health of the individual... why are we so quick to make such scathing assumptions about a person who is (quite literally) already down? Why beat a dead horse, except to make yourself feel an illustion of strength? It's dead .

Nevermind that question.

I just want to know. Is there anyone who is happy? Isn't there anyone who has faith that the universe, God, the soul, or whatever powers that be are good and will work things in everyone's favor? Is there no one who has an unshakable optimism?

I almost want to celebrate.

[Edit: Please refrain from making the token New Age statements about suicide. I know what you think and I know who you are, Mr. "earth is a school" and Mrs. "it depends on the fear and negative energy of the soul at the time of death"  etc...]

#1 · Jun 20, 2005, 22:56 · Tom

What I think is that the people who are the loudest against suicide are the ones who are the most jealous of the deceased.

#2 · Jun 20, 2005, 23:02 · Leannain

Suicide is a natural thing.

#3 · Jun 20, 2005, 23:27 · mactombs

It depends on your viewpoint. What are virtues? Is selfishness a virtue? If so, then suicide is perfectly fine.

Suicide, in most cases, causes other people lots of grief. We are a society, we are social creatures - what we do affects others. Those who commit suicide might escape, but they have shrugged off their pain onto others. And I doubt that in the afterlife the issues that lead to suicide are totally absolved. There's still a major issue to deal with.
Quote Suicide is a natural thing.
Only if you're a lemming. Suicide has to be one of the most freakish and unnatural things in all of biology.

#4 · Jun 20, 2005, 23:35 · Tom

The natural and healthy condition is to enjoy life. Something has to really warp a person to make it possible to commit suicide. It is like being stuck in a trance, but a harmful and deeply restrictive type of trance.

#5 · Jun 20, 2005, 23:54 · Telos

So, no one is happy...?

#6 · Jun 21, 2005, 00:18 · no_leaf_clover

Quote So, no one is happy...?
I don't know where you're going with that, but I'd say I'm happy. Why?

#7 · Jun 21, 2005, 01:17 · Tom

If suicide were to be like an innocent person breaking out of prison, I'd be happy to hear about it. Instead I have to see it as the lost opportunity it is.

#8 · Jun 21, 2005, 04:31 · Lente

Quote from: Telos I always thought it was hypocritical to take someone who committed suicide - someone who potentially reached the lowest point of life possible - and then tinkle on their grave with condemnation. In other words the fanatics who say suicides are evil mortal sinners seem to take delight in pointing out the suffering of people and saying, "yes, indeed they are suffering, shame on them."

But I digress.

I just heard word of someone my age committing suicide. I thought, "good for him!" Obviously, I bite my tongue in real life, but not here.

Suicides are  nothing new. But why do I always hear it buttressed with debasing highfalutin snobbery... that the person was "mental", "screwed up" and "not right." Regardless of your religion or personal ethics or the actual mental health of the individual... why are we so quick to make such scathing assumptions about a person who is (quite literally) already down? Why beat a dead horse, except to make yourself feel an illustion of strength? It's dead .

Nevermind that question.

I just want to know. Is there anyone who is happy? Isn't there anyone who has faith that the universe, God, the soul, or whatever powers that be are good and will work things in everyone's favor? Is there no one who has an unshakable optimism?

I almost want to celebrate.

[Edit: Please refrain from making the token New Age statements about suicide. I know what you think and I know who you are, Mr. "earth is a school" and Mrs. "it depends on the fear and negative energy of the soul at the time of death"  etc...]
Well I think everyone should have the right to kill themselves, however it should be discouraged.

And is anyone happy, I'm sure there are people who are perfectly happy. And people whose life is bittersweet, a bit happy a bit sad. I'm pretty hopeful myself.

Oh yeah, earth is a school or playground, oops you didn't want to hear that.... but if it is your going to be pretty mad about yourself taking the easy way out.

#9 · Jun 21, 2005, 10:13 · coolbreeze

To me, suicide should be treated like the abortion issue- as an option, but a last resort. With abortion we supply birth control, with suicide we provide the tools to deal with what could cause suicide.

I believe in reincarnation and karma, so, in my opinion, taking the way out through suicide is just going to land you somewhere worse than you are now.
Quote In other words the fanatics who say suicides are evil mortal sinners seem to take delight in pointing out the suffering of people and saying, "yes, indeed they are suffering, shame on them."
I am NOT saying "ooo you committed suicide, naughty", i AM saying "what can we do to help others who are suicidal so that they don't kill themselves"

#10 · Jun 21, 2005, 13:55 · Wronski Feint

Well I personally wouldnt kill myself, because I dont think you(im not talking about one person just someone in general)  should.  Not because of the whole christian idea of it, but my own.  I think you shouldnt commit suicide because you are meant to live.  If there is no point in being born, then you wouldnt be born.  Nature fits everything together in our world, everything has a role from bugs to dust.  Even though you have the power to kill yourself, I dont think someone should.  I know somtimes life gets really bad and I understand the feeling of wanting to not exist but there is always an option out.  But no matter how bad life gets there is sombody somwhere whos got it worse than you.  Life is precious and you should never throw it away.  There are thousands of people who want to live that get killed everyday, their lives taken from them and you still got yours.

I thinks someone on the first page said 'suicide is natural' no its not.  Whens the last time a bear hung itself.  Ive never seen a raccoon intentionally run out infront of a car.  Humans are the only animals capable to commit suicide.

#11 · Jun 21, 2005, 15:04 · Wronski Feint

Yes but I dont think an animal makes a concious decision about it though.  Its more of a mechanism.

#12 · Jun 21, 2005, 15:22 · Frank

Hi:

I think people ought to consider there is a difference nowadays between what we call "suicide" and an act of self-deliverance. An act of self-deliverance is classed as a logical decision by the person in question. Whereas a suicide is generally classed as an irrational decision by someone in dire need of psychological help as a result of clinical depression and/or what we would class as mental illness.

In my experience, some forms of mental illness are tantamount to torture. It can very easily reach the stage where the person in question feels they simply have no alternative but death [as a form of escape]. It is all very well for the sociologically comfortable to pass their judgement upon these people. Social snobbery takes many forms I suppose. But go and actually work with these people and then see how you feel.

The whole question, I would suggest, is a LOT more complex than most people assume. In the first instance, I would recommend people read Final Exit by Derek Humphry. He touches on a number of important basic issues regarding this.

Plus, I would respectfully suggest people try to gain an understanding of this issue by actually working with people who feel a psychological need to do away with themselves, as it were, as I did for a number of years. I think you would find it rather enlightening, but enlightening in a real sense, not in a happy-clappy we all are all one and oh so [pseudo] enlightened New-Age sense.

Yours,
Frank

#13 · Jun 21, 2005, 18:01 · Wronski Feint

I have contemplated killing myself during times of distress and in times of inquiry.  I often wonderd what would happen if I just shot myself in the head.  Just for curiosity's sake.  But during times when I was extremely fustrated with life, I thought about killing myself and then I thought of another way out.  I know some people dont have the luxury of having somewhere to go for a while, but I live at the edge of a large forest.  I have considred just dissapearing for a month or two, cutting contact with everyone.  That would be like killing myself, but I still get to live.  I would have peace and be able to come in contact with my innerself and with the earth.   So if anyone in here is thinking about killing themselves because life is hard, dont, just escape by leaving, dont comeback untill you feel better.  But if you are thinking about doing it because you feel it will help you acheive a greater level of enlightment, dont.  Just finish up your life here, have some fun with it,  go and travel see all that life has to offer.

#14 · Jun 21, 2005, 18:21 · Tom

The trouble with suicide is reincarnation. I still think that it is better to stay with the current life which is a known quantity than to gamble on the next.

#15 · Jun 22, 2005, 01:55 · beavis

Every person, if they lived enough billions of years in the same body, would choose suicide eventually. Some prefer a shorter time. The thread title asks if I'm happy for the suiciders, not their friends and relatives. If they prefer it, yes.

#16 · Jun 22, 2005, 15:25 · CaCoDeMoN

I think that suicide caused by depression is always a tragedy, because there are many better ways to fix the problems(if there's afterlife suicide doesn't solve anything). I also think that suicide caused by a REAL problems is a tragedy too, and altough I understand the motivations of the person it still makes me sad.
The only kind of suicide that I think is a good way to die is when a soldier/guerilla commits suicide to avoid being captured by the enemy.

#17 · Jun 22, 2005, 21:55 · Leannain

i like the samurai suicides

#18 · Jun 23, 2005, 01:32 · Telos

I just thought it would be nice to toast the passing of an individual who ostensibly had a deep and fragile relationship with existence. Good luck to him in the great unknown. May the guides clear his path and his passage be free!

Or something. Something other than a retroactive diagnosis or a faith-bent pretentious damnation.

It doesn't have to be a logical argument speculating the nature of his act or a legal protection of such decisions. Some joy would serve. Some hope would suffice.

Thank you for your replies.

#19 · Jun 23, 2005, 02:39 · Tom

You can always do something good and dedicate the merit for someone who has died. There is not even a time limit on how recent the death has to be for it to make a difference.

#20 · Jun 23, 2005, 11:17 · Telos

You're missing the point entirely, Tom.

For this thread I am interested in the living, not the deceased. I want to know if there are living, breathing people who are in some candid way happy for the voluntarily deceased. I want to know if there are people who do not drown themselves in folly by trying to "make sense" of the event by introducing mental illness or metaphysical artifices and religious mumbo jumbo.

#21 · Jun 23, 2005, 12:33 · Tom

It is hard for happy and healthy people to imagine suicide, so the only conclusion which makes sense is that something went wrong. The next step is to try to determine what it was and why, out of fear that it could happen to them, too.

#22 · Jun 23, 2005, 12:58 · Nay

Quote from: Telos You're missing the point entirely, Tom.

For this thread I am interested in the living, not the deceased. I want to know if there are living, breathing people who are in some candid way happy for the voluntarily deceased. I want to know if there are people who do not drown themselves in folly by trying to "make sense" of the event by introducing mental illness or metaphysical artifices and religious mumbo jumbo.
My step mother killed herself after years of abusing me and my siblings,   usually just me.   We still don't understand why it was mostly me.  Only when my brother or sister tried to get her attention away from me would they get it.   I guess you could say it was a relief when she took all those pills....  I just wish she wouldn't have gotten her hair done, put on her wedding dress, crawl onto my bed, tie a couple of garbage bags around her head knowing darn well my father was going to find her. :evil: Oh not to mention she drained my fathers savings and gave it all to her two boys.

She planned everything.   That made me angry for years, I don't give a flying fart what was up with her mind.  She was a angry woman and now I have no problems with it, but man oh man, did I.

I was surprised when the police were tearing the house apart they found a bunch of books hidden behind the bookcase that were about witch craft and ones that told her how to do the deed.  Amazing that there are books out there for any subject. :P

Nuff of my ramblings...

Nay

#23 · Jun 23, 2005, 15:20 · Telos

Nay, thank you so much for sharing your story. I applaud your courage.

Please criticize me appropriately for I do not intend to trivialize the complexities of your emotional life, nor do I intend to press the question on you. But certrainly your stepmother suffered in a cataclysmic way, hating herself and hating those who reminded her of her weakness, and hating life. And she lived and died so pitifully , so low and disgustingly powerless.

Are you happy for her?

Forgive me if this is difficult topic. I'm not trying to empahsize an ideology or a view point... I just want to know if there are others who are happy. Or serene, even.

#24 · Jun 23, 2005, 16:08 · knightlight

For many of my teenage years I wanted death simply because I hated life.  Now in my early 20's I want death as frank said for self deliverance.  I have a few things I wish to still accomplish here and I do have a dream which I am working on accomplishing now, but as a whole this whole physical existence thing is a bit mundane for me.  As a child of 12 I saved a small boy from falling off of a railing about 25 feet up, surely enough to kill him and ever since that day I felt my purpose here was completed.  If I knew for certain that my death would bring no one pain and allow me to go on with my spiritual path releasing me from my limitations in this world I would not give it a second thought.  I would prefer to give my life for something good instead of taking it myself, such as self sacrifice to save someone or further a cause.  I have come to a point in my life where I feel I've got the general idea of this focus and wish to move on permanently.  Don't worry for my safety, I'm not exactly hell bent on my own demise and I firmly believe that I was given this life for a reason, but have I already fulfilled it?

Am I happy for suicides??  I don't know, it depends on their fate after death.  If they are indeed reincarnated as a lower form or punished severely for their lack of self love than no, if they are released from their pain and freed spiritually to roam the various FoC's with tears of joy and release in their eyes, then of course I am.

#25 · Jun 23, 2005, 16:27 · Telos

Quote Am I happy for suicides?? I don't know, it depends on their fate after death.
I suppose that's the intelligent answer. My question is perceptively vacuous.

#26 · Jun 23, 2005, 16:30 · Frank

Hi:

To my mind, the problem here is in the original question. Could any thinking, feeling, compassionate human-being feel HAPPY for someone who has gone through the mental trauma that let to their self-inflicted demise?

I just think not.

Happiness is the wrong word, IMO. Compassion, yes, but happiness? I have worked with these people and have empathised with their pain too often to think it is something I should feel happy about.

Yours,
Frank

#27 · Jun 23, 2005, 16:41 · Nay

Quote from: Telos Nay, thank you so much for sharing your story. I applaud your courage.

Please criticize me appropriately for I do not intend to trivialize the complexities of your emotional life, nor do I intend to press the question on you. But certrainly your stepmother suffered in a cataclysmic way, hating herself and hating those who reminded her of her weakness, and hating life. And she lived and died so pitifully , so low and disgustingly powerless.

Are you happy for her?

Forgive me if this is difficult topic. I'm not trying to empahsize an ideology or a view point... I just want to know if there are others who are happy. Or serene, even.
Am I happy for her now, you mean?  IMO, I think she has to come back and try once again to learn the lessons that she needed to learn, perhaps she did learn some but she should have stuck it out.   Personally I think killing onself is a selfish and cowardly act.   And I'm pretty sure she figured that out right away.. :)

She was a mean and hateful person and did things on purpose to cause pain to others... I guess I'm indifferent for her happiness, if that makes sense.

Nay

#28 · Jun 23, 2005, 19:26 · Telos

Frank, I am just happy that they've reached their end , at least for this trip through the cosmos. As you may infer from my name, I'm somewhat passionate about discovering ends which makes something complete, unified, and whole. I am happy for the completeness of their lifetime, regardless of where it leads. This nominal if narrow sense of "completeness" is tangible and consistent hope of a much larger completeness.

And I know I am introducing some philosophical bias here... Thank you to you and all the contributors of this thread for helping me understand my own question.

#29 · Jun 23, 2005, 21:19 · Frank

This nominal if narrow sense of "completeness" is a tangible and consistent hope of a much larger completeness.

Hmm, that sentence got me thinking.

I appreciate your direction.

Yours,
Frank

#30 · Jun 23, 2005, 21:37 · gdo

I once heard that suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

I, for one, am not 'happy' at this permanent solution, for anyone.  And then also I am not happy for the artificially extending or prolonging the misery of a terminally ill person.

#31 · Jun 26, 2005, 17:08 · JKK

I guess it all depends on your morals and beliefs in the after life

I think it also depends on what you believe thoughts really are...if you can't escape them now who is to say you won't be trapped with them as you move on..maybe that is the real hell

All in all I'd say to commit suicide over a negative thoughts in your mind that are eating at you is wrong, but to do it in a no-other-choice situation, or if they are 'looking' for better things thanks to the current world we live in, and can do it with a pure heart, then I think it is ok

#32 · Jun 26, 2005, 18:39 · Nay

I'm curious, how many of you whom have commented on this thread have had a close experience with suicide?  For instance...someone you knew more than casually that had killed themselves?

I don't want to say that your feelings are null and void, but it really is hard to put yourself in those shoes....they're quite big.  Speculation on what you think your feelings on the subject would be are a far cry from how you would actually act....or feel.

Just saying,
Nay

#33 · Jun 26, 2005, 18:53 · Telos

I really didn't want this thread to be a discussion on when suicide is "okay" or not, but because of my ambiguity I supposed I asked for it. I wanted to focus to be on us, the survivors, and how we deal with it. Thank you Nay, for asking this question.

I actually know very few people more than casually. Part of it is because all the people I know end up moving away, going to different schools and different lives, or I moved away and went to a different school and a different life, etc. But I know , without speculating one bit, that if someone close to me committed suicide, it would only propel me to look for more happiness and beauty in the world. It would only force me with the ineluctable decision to either be happy or sad for them - and I would do my best to choose to be happy.

#34 · Jun 26, 2005, 19:05 · Tom

My uncle fell off a cliff while on a camping trip. He had been drinking and the weather was bad. He just stepped over that fence to get a better view, and he slipped. His fiancee found him. He had just gotten a promotion at work and he was going to be married. They went out to celebrate. I was young enough at the time to actually believe it happened the way my parents said it did.

#35 · Jun 26, 2005, 19:45 · Frank

Nay:

Yes, very close experience. She was a youngster, female, boyfriend left her and her world fell apart. She died in my arms as I heard the ambulance arriving. Something I will never forget. Still got the whacking great scar on my inner forearm from punching my fist through the side window to get the front door open. Tore my inner forearm in half. 20 years later I still remember it like it was yesterday.

Yours,
Frank

#36 · Jun 26, 2005, 22:06 · gdo

Direct experience? Yes! more than once.  Had a friend that suicided.  Also took a loaded and cocked 9mm pistol out someones hand.  Young people.

Now if I was terminally ill and new physical death was near, I would reject any type of extenstion efforts, not allow to be  plugged in, but that is different.

#37 · Jun 27, 2005, 18:21 · Kazbadan

Telos, answering to your question: people laugh at suicidal guys because:
1) thats an emotional way to deal with the situation. Suicidal its hard to accept, so a natural response its laugh at that. Humour (even black humour) its a way to deal with things.

2) thats the Darwin natural evolution. People dont give to much attention to suicidal dudes because they are weak (in the view of the people that laugh at them). If they are weak (not in my view) they must get out of this world (again, not my speech) because they are not useful. Like any other animal, humans try to raise and give attention only to the best of the best. Every body worships Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt. Why? BEcause they are good looking and that = good genes = better humans with more capabilities to survive.

No one worships suicidal guys for the opposite reason.

Unforunatly that the way things work in this western world.

People shoould give more attention to the ones suffering in silence. One word of wisdom, one friendly touch, sometimes the people (suicidal) just need that and no one gives it.

#38 · Jun 27, 2005, 20:37 · Nay

Quote from: Telos I really didn't want this thread to be a discussion on when suicide is "okay" or not, but because of my ambiguity I supposed I asked for it. I wanted to focus to be on us, the survivors, and how we deal with it. Thank you Nay, for asking this question.

I actually know very few people more than casually. Part of it is because all the people I know end up moving away, going to different schools and different lives, or I moved away and went to a different school and a different life, etc. But I know , without speculating one bit, that if someone close to me committed suicide, it would only propel me to look for more happiness and beauty in the world. It would only force me with the ineluctable decision to either be happy or sad for them - and I would do my best to choose to be happy.
Your welcome Telos.  Seems weird to say you're welcome on such a subject and I don't want to lessen anything, but you are welcome non the less. :D

I understand what you are saying about caring about what the person was thinking, feeling or going thru before they did the deed.  Yet, I suppose there are different outlooks on it...as it is with most things.

For instance... if my husband decided to leave his family because of whatever hardship he was dealing with and couldn't handle, I would be ticked!  I would wonder what the heck it was that we did to cause him to think he no longer could or wanted to stay here.

Of course that comes with the line of knowing...eh, ok.... at least thinking that he was perfectly fine.  There are sooooo many different scenarios to this particular upset, that there is no way to pigeon hole it at all.  You just can't....

Of course, all my opinion..aka, IMO.  Just had to add that for the fellow member whom asked what IMO means. :D I'm still learning new internet slang.. ha!

Nay

#39 · Jun 27, 2005, 20:45 · Nay

Quote from: Tom My uncle fell off a cliff while on a camping trip. He had been drinking and the weather was bad. He just stepped over that fence to get a better view, and he slipped. His fiancee found him. He had just gotten a promotion at work and he was going to be married. They went out to celebrate. I was young enough at the time to actually believe it happened the way my parents said it did.
I'm sorry to hear this Tom.   However, are you saying he did it on purpose?  Did he want to end his life, or just had one of those bad decision days? (Drinking and climbing on high places)  Do you suspect foul play? :shock:

I'm giggling a bit..ONLY because I have this Sherlock Holmes mentality, not because of a morbid sense of humor.   Ask any of the mods..lol..

It is a wild thing when you are told one thing, yet your instincts/gut feeling, tells you something else.

Nay

#40 · Jun 27, 2005, 20:52 · Nay

Quote from: Frank Nay:

Yes, very close experience. She was a youngster, female, boyfriend left her and her world fell apart. She died in my arms as I heard the ambulance arriving. Something I will never forget. Still got the whacking great scar on my inner forearm from punching my fist through the side window to get the front door open. Tore my inner forearm in half. 20 years later I still remember it like it was yesterday.

Yours,
Frank
That is intense to say the least.  Holding someone while they die is an experience that is either embraced or shunned..   Do you think you took something from it though?  Did it make you see life...or death, differently?

Take Care,
Nay

#41 · Jun 27, 2005, 21:07 · Nay

Quote from: gdo Direct experience? Yes! more than once.  Had a friend that suicided.  Also took a loaded and cocked 9mm pistol out someones hand.  Young people.

Now if I was terminally ill and new physical death was near, I would reject any type of extenstion efforts, not allow to be  plugged in, but that is different.
So your friend embraced life as well?  I get the feeling that that was one thing he always did.  He felt more for others than himself...  Lots of people feel that way and it is a shame!

Alot of us are always feeling like we're not being heard, felt, or understood correctly.  And then turn around and beat ourselves up about it...LOL...that is crazy.

About the terminally ill......hmm...yeah, I have to say I don't want to be hooked up to machines to keep me alive.   Yet, I wouldn't want to leave my family hurting so I would hang on as long as I could, thus causing their pain even greater by having to watch me die slowly.  That sucks for them and me both..  How does one make that decision?   I think I'll leave that for if or when I have to make it.  And hope I die in my sleep.  Ahhh...the way to go.  Everyone is very calm when a loved one dies in their sleep, right?

Nay

#42 · Jun 29, 2005, 11:26 · fliesatnite

Hi All,

I've been reading these replies with much interest, and everyone here has a point to ponder in one fashion or another. As it is a tough subject to broach.

To answer the original question....  I don't rejoice when someone commits suicide, I do however understand the need or want to 'be done' with their life, as I'm sure others here can as well.  Life is so incredibly hard at times.

I have personally known people who've committed suicide, and I have personally known a couple of people that have killed another person... (but that's another thread).  The bottom line with suicide is that I genuinely feel sad for them that they feel they have no other option other than to take their own lives.

I believe in re-incarnation and karma, so for me suicide is not a realistic option.  When I hear of people taking there own lives, I do not rejoice, my soul is sad for them.

However... a little off topic perhaps.... I do rejoice (on the inside) when people pass on, but not by their own hand.

Fliesatnite

#43 · Aug 04, 2005, 05:51 · AndrewTheSinger

Maybe I have a twisted view on this but I feel like I need to live for them. Just continue for them something they could not, see and feel what they didn't. Unlike 'natural' deaths, suicide reinforces me the idea that a life is something to be experienced in it's fullest form, both pain and bliss, because all the petty struggles go away. And if I can't take it anymore then maybe someone will do it for me.