#0 · Sep 10, 2002, 16:13 · SPASTRAL

I would like to take a minute to pay a tribute to the thousands of families affected by last years tragic events.

I lost my dad only a couple of weeks ago.  He was 80 and died of Kidney failure and pneumonia.  This devastated  me and my family. Mmy dad still enjoyed 70+ years of good health

I can not begin to imagine how the thousands of families of the victimes must feel.  My heart goes out to you all.

Everyone please join me in sending heartfelt condolences to those who have suffered loss, and pray that piece will befall us all sometime soon

God bless

Spencer

#1 · Sep 10, 2002, 16:27 · Chamos

How many innocent kids do you think were on those planes? It's hard to think that some of those kids didn't even know what was going on, or why they were being hurdled  to the back. I pray for their souls, and the souls of the others who were lost.

#2 · Sep 10, 2002, 18:07 · Mobius

Peace to all peace loving Americans on this day, the world is thinking about you.

Good journeys all & a peaceful one.

Mobius

#3 · Sep 11, 2002, 01:04 · density

Is death so meaningful?

Every moment somebody dies and it always has a reason.  That your father died from kidney failure was a result of his diet and habits. Perhaps even his genes. You can say his time was up.

The 9.11 incident was a result of failed policies and an ignorance towards the Islam on side of the United States.

Neither 9.11 nor a kidney failure is something we would call "good" but that is the way life goes.
It always has a reason and for the greater karma that affects us all we sometimes do not have the control over it.

.

"Minds are like parachutes. They only work when they are open."  -  unknown

"Real science can be far stranger than science fiction and much more satisfying."   - Stephen Hawking

#4 · Sep 11, 2002, 05:13 · andy

Hi Density,

So *YOU* evidently believe in karma.I wonder what a hand full of those 3 year olds who boarded those planse at this very hour I write believed in?
I always veiwed karma as somthing that effected you after living in a spirtual way oppossed to ones waking life.

As far as Islam is concerned,wouldnt Osama Bin Laden like everyone to believe what you wrote.Of the Muslims I or others I know have spoke to they feel its a horrible shame that that it was Osama who has cast such a big missunderstanding on what islam is all about.
But thats the way it is,sorta like the Catholic church,now *every* priest is a suspected child molester,in the publics eye anyways.
( its thinking like this that breeds ignorence)

Osama was no different than david koresh.He was/is a master pupeteer who used religon to fule the minds of gullable people into comiting hanis acts of violence against innocent people.Note the similaritys of just those two alone.Koresh ran to the safety of his secret room in the back complex while Osama ran and headed for the hills.Both,after preaching to thier flocks to stair the enemy and kill or be killed.( do as I say,not as I do)

Spastral,sorry about your fathers passing.May he be at peace!

To all of you Amreicans in the the U.S and abroad(such as me).Peace and remberance always!!

Peace!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

#5 · Sep 11, 2002, 06:29 · WalkerInTheWoods

The original post was wanting to pay tribute to those that have suffered from what happened 1 year ago. Though discussing why such things took place makes a good topic, I do not think this is the place to do it. Making another topic for this discussion would be much more apporpriate. If you wish to pay tribute to those who were effected on 9-11 then do so here.

Heart goes out to those that have had to deal with this on a much more personal level than most of the nation.

#6 · Sep 11, 2002, 06:39 · michael

those who have had to face the death of loved ones under any tragic circumstances.will always question why?Fundamentalists in all religions have a lot to answer for with their skewed interpretations...how anyoine would think that killing innocent folks (regardless of karma) is a good thing and earns you heaven is beyond me..but what about the two million or so civilians killed in Vietnam?(Killing Commies for Christ) et c etc etc terrorism is not one sided ie all Moslem..there were a thousand twin towers in Vietnam Cambodia etc..more poeple (innocent) lost in Afghanistan due to UK and USA bombing..blood revenge which again will be paid for....I am AMAZED at those american famileis who lost loved ones in twin towers who said against Bush and blair they did not want Afghanistan bombed..true christians moslems atehists etc..God bless them and their love....

#7 · Sep 11, 2002, 07:01 · SPASTRAL

This isn't my forum......

I haven't got any charge over what you write on here, but what I requested, was that we pay tribute to families who lost people.  Somewhere on this forum, people who lost families and friends may read this, and I thought it would be nice to let them know that the rest of us were thinking about them.

As fallen angel said, start another thread, but please try and respect what this thread is for.

No offence intended.

#8 · Sep 11, 2002, 07:56 · density

quote:
Originally posted by andy:
Hi Density,

So *YOU* evidently believe in karma.I wonder what a hand full of those 3 year olds who boarded those planse at this very hour I write believed in?
Have you really thought about my post?
Or is it that your patriotic feelings impair the flow of energy above your brain stem.
Please start to think rationally before you answer any posts.

1. Mentioning a word does not mean believing in it.
2. The meaning of karma is not necessarily religous.
3. My post has nothing to do with what I think about terrorism or my attitude towards it.
It is only related to death and its reasons.
4. 50 years ago not a single islamic country had a negative attitude towards the US. Why has
that changed? There are reasons for that. If these reasons are enough for terrorists
attacks or not has nothing to do with my post.
quote:
I always veiwed karma as somthing that effected you after living in a spirtual way oppossed to ones waking life.
Certainly not! This view is actually a rather Christian belief. You go to Heaven or Hell after your earthly life. The concept of Karma is different. Good deeds produce good Karma. Bad deeds produce bad Karma. When this affects your life is unclear. It can happen anytime.
quote:
As far as Islam is concerned,wouldnt Osama Bin Laden like everyone to believe what you wrote.Of the Muslims I or others I know have spoke to they feel its a horrible shame that that
it was Osama who has cast such a big missunderstanding on what islam is all about.
I am not speaking for Bin Laden or anyone else. That you think so only shows linguistic incompetence. I wrote: "The 9.11 incident was a result of failed policies and an ignorance towards the Islam on side of the United States."

It is a fact that many islamic countries have a bad relationship with the US. It is a fact that many of these countries (including the Iraq and Afghanistan) were supplied with weapons from the US. In the case of Afghanistan the US supported Bin Laden for a long time in order to drive the communists out of the country.

So, can I say that the 9.11 incident has its roots in foolish policies of the Reagan and Bush aministrations?
quote:
But thats the way it is,sorta like the Catholic church,now *every* priest is a suspected child molester,in the publics eye anyways.
( its thinking like this that breeds ignorence)
Yes, that is exactly the reason why most Americans do not understand the Islam or Communism. That is the reason why they think both are "dangerous".
quote:
Osama was no different than david koresh.He was/is a master pupeteer who used religon to fule the minds of gullable people into comiting hanis acts of violence against innocent people.Note the similaritys of just those two alone.Koresh ran to the safety of his secret room in the back complex while Osama ran and headed for the hills.Both,after preaching to thier flocks to stair the enemy and kill or be killed.( do as I say,not as I do)
Do you know how often American Presidents mention "God" in their speeches?

PS: The reason for my post was that I think if we had more control over our feelings regardless of what kind our lives would be much better. You also could say that feelings of any kind hinder our spiritual growth.
Spastrals love for his father affects his life. His fathers fear of the death affected the whole family. If they could see death as a very natural thing it would be much easier for them.
.

"Minds are like parachutes. They only work when they are open."  -  unknown

"Real science can be far stranger than science fiction and much more satisfying."   - Stephen Hawking

#9 · Sep 11, 2002, 08:39 · Chamos

andy, density, please, please move this to another thread. I agree with the others that this is not the right place to post those arguments, no matter how good a debate you guys are making. I'm sure if people who lost families and froends saw your debates they'd most likely agree but this is where we planned on paying them tribute, not discussing why they died like some discuss the plot of movies.

Plus density; how would an innocent child's karma be sooo horrible that they had to be killed this way? not even knowing what was happening?
Or, if it was some one elses karma that caused this, why did they drag a child into their spiritual darkness? Why did the child have to die if it was someone elses karma that caused this?

#10 · Sep 11, 2002, 08:46 · clandestino

agreed with Chamos - please shift your thoughts elsewhere.

I hope that everyone around the world who has suffered as a result of the terrorist attacks realises that there are millions of people who feel for them.

I hope that this suffering is lessened slightly by our sympathy to their plight.

#11 · Sep 11, 2002, 08:59 · michael

Dunno why there is a call to shift the post elswhere..surely folk can "cope" with the points being made???we are all alive..havent been terorised in newYork,janin etc etc...so we can surely talk here and answer points without going all "delicate"..life is hard..sure enough

#12 · Sep 11, 2002, 09:51 · Tracy

Please people, this thread is for the name of love, respect, honoring others and knowing that even in the blackest hour there is a light.  Lets not argue.

Everything that has happened has been started by evil and negative thinking, so lets be a beakon of light and show our respect, love and support!

"Grab your magic wings and fly!"

#13 · Sep 11, 2002, 10:24 · density

quote:
Originally posted by michael:
Dunno why there is a call to shift the post elswhere..surely folk can "cope" with the points being made???we are all alive..havent been terorised in newYork,janin etc etc...so we can surely talk here and answer points without going all "delicate"..life is hard..sure enough
Perfectly right!

You could even say that if you demand to remove these post you should actually remove the whole thread (iit isn't really related to OBEs uh?).

Interestingly, my original post was not really off the topic. It showed just a different way how to think about death. fallenangel, chamos, clandestine and tracy either have only read the last post or picked up some words in the posts without wholly reading them.

That andy gave my post such an opposing answer was his right (although I still think that he did not really try to understand it).

After all, this is a discussion forum. If we really have to tribute about every tragic event of the past years we should open a new forum. Why don't we start with the train accident in India a few days ago? Indian officials talk about sabotage! Another Bin Laden? I think that is all ridiculous. If we thought of all dead people we would go mad.

Perhaps, we should stop discussing what we can do and what not in this forum or thread. Do there have to be so many rules?

And to chamos: Try to get some infos on reincarnation and the doctrine of karma that would answer your question. Also, I think the death of these children is a "good" death as it was fast and with relatively little suffering (try to compare that to cancer).

.
.
.

"Minds are like parachutes. They only work when they are open."  -  unknown

"Real science can be far stranger than science fiction and much more satisfying."   - Stephen Hawking

#14 · Sep 11, 2002, 11:54 · Frank

I think what we have here is a valid discussion and, personally, I cannot see what all the fuss is about. A couple of aircraft hit a building and about three thousand, or so, people died. That's life, I'm afraid. So, you have a period of mourning, clear the debris and stuff, and move on.

People die all the time, all over the world, and many in the most horrific ways imaginable. Someone's talking about a few innocent children dying on one of the planes. Well, if we're talking of innocent children dying here: what about the hundred, or so, thousand innocent children who die in Africa every year for want of the very most basic human needs.

Normally, most of us just push such uncomfortable facts aside and get on with our daily lives. So why should this (relatively minor, in world terms) incident be any different?

Yours,
Frank

#15 · Sep 11, 2002, 13:16 · PeacefulWarrior

I agree and disgaree with you Frank.  Yes, people die all the time, and in the most horrific ways...and we should care every time someone dies, but that would mean we would be mourning all the time, which is both absurd and impossible.  ON the other hand, it's not every day, or even every month or year that something happens like this.  Thousands killed, almost all of them "innocent" in that they were not soldiers, etc.  and you say "What's the big deal?"  Maybe if it happened in your country, or to your wife, or....you get the picture.

fides quaerens intellectum

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#17 · Sep 11, 2002, 17:28 · andy

Hi density,

Trust me,I gave your orginal post lots of thought before writing a response.Please read my response carefuly.

While the true nature of your post may have leaned majority wise elsewhere,you still managed to get a jab in there at anotherwise sympthetic post.(its your right and I possibly missinturperted it)

If you recall the nature of the thread,your original post struck me as finger pointing a blame on why 9/11 happenend.This was astray in my opinion so I responded.(I orginaly thought to move to chat)

At any rate you mention the reason for this event taking place was a result of failed policies and lack of understanding for Islam on the behalf of the U.S.
This is where I and you differ.
I dont see Islam as behind the 9/11 attacks.I see extreamist behind it who would  like the world to believe its about Islam.This is a issue that really peavs me when I hear G.W.Bush lay into with all that christian god stuff.For me its only adding fuel to the fire inwhich only a select few really want to see.Those few are the extreamist,G.W.Bush in my opinion is one of them.
Scarry stuff.

As for Karma,I cant say that I believe in it at all.Once I used to but to many losse ends changed my mind.As for the intermition faze after death which is purely an asumption,I suppose if karma had a place it would be there.
Absolutly none of my opinions stem from anything related to the christian church!!

In response to your *top 4* list:
#1-generaly when one speaks in a sentence about *thier* outlook on a subject it is implying that they *believe*. please reread the statment on karma.

#2-I dont see Karma as religious.

#3-You infact say it 9/11 happened as a result of ignorance on behalf of the U.S. This is an opinion.

#4 (drum roll please) Lots of countrys dont like the u.s! Not just some Islamic countrys.But is the voice of a few the voice of a nation?If the answer is yes then add Canada to the list anti american countrys.Scince arriving here 7 years ago ive heard more anti american b.s than you could shake a stick at!
It only takes a select few morons to speak for a nation.Please think before you generalise.

It is important to remember that there are always two ways to look at something.

Last but not least I take your expressions  of me not to heart.If I offended you in anyway please dissregard it and keep in mind that we at least have a common intrest in these fourms.

Much peace! http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile.gif" border=0>

#18 · Sep 11, 2002, 18:21 · Chamos

If a few people's oppinions dictate the nation then that might mean that the we are an anti-american culture too because several people I've passed by have expressed there hate against america with great finality to there friends and they've lived here for years. So this all would end up to be a highly confusing situation. I wonder how many people in each nation speak out against there nations and countries daily. it would be an interesting fact to know if not completely relevent/revelent. Gah! I can't spell it!

And denstiy does make a good point. Even with the initial fears and all at least they weren't kidnapped and burnned to death on live television or something. it was a reletively quick death. Plus reincarnation would accumulate enough bad karma to have that happen. But I think that it is horrible to die that young.

I'm not saying anything about the thousands who die in third world countries because basically I never hear or know about that, people in those countries could suddenly stop dieing or being raped and I would never know because I'd never hear about it and life does tend to push those things onto the backburnner, even if it is more important than life's daily activities.

#19 · Sep 12, 2002, 01:06 · Adrian

Greetings!

I agree with Frank I have to say.

But OTOH we do recognise that this tragedy was almost unheard of in the USA, and a great many innocent people were involved either directly or indirectly at one time. It also sent a chilling message to humanity.

We all pay our respects as our friends in the USA will mark the anniversary of the tragedy, and everyone will move on.

If only those left behind by those who passed on knew how their loved ones are really fairing, I am sure their grief would be considerably lessened.

With kind regards,

Adrian.