#0 · Dec 27, 2004, 14:02 · iank

well are they?how do you know for sure.
i think the majority of people's experiences are just an virtual
reality dream...care to comment...

#1 · Dec 27, 2004, 14:12 · greatoutdoors

Some are undoubtedly just dreams. And more than a few are just the "grand imaginings" of folks who wish they could do what they describe. But I can guarantee you that some of them are quite "mind-bogglingly" real! Like Robert has said repeatedly, I take as fact only those things I know are true from personal experience. I have only a brief experience with AP, but it left an indelible impression.

If you're interested in the astral, get ready for a long, steady course of meditation, study and practice. You will not achieve anything meaningful with hit-or-miss techniques. By the way, I am talking to myself here! :oops: :wink:

It's a fascinating topic. By the way, it looks like you are a "newby" -- welcome aboard! :D

#2 · Dec 27, 2004, 14:33 · Nostic

You can only be sure if you yourself become proficient at it. Practice daily if you're a serious seeker.

#3 · Dec 27, 2004, 14:44 · Frank

Hello:

As you are asking, my comment would be to say you are showing up your inexperience to a great extent. Perhaps it might be an idea to get a few years of hands-on experience before casting judgement upon what you believe the majority of us are experiencing.

Yours,
Frank

#4 · Dec 27, 2004, 15:27 · Banjoshee

iank, has something happened to make you doubt?

For me, I found it took some time to sort out imaginings from actual APs. And sometimes APs can seem like imaginings.

Consider this the grand exploration and that you are mapping uncharted territory. Once you can say, Yes, I am here. This is real AP and not my imagining, well, the fun begins.

Course it's not everyone's "thing."

#5 · Dec 27, 2004, 15:30 · Banjoshee

Some people spend their time watching television! ;-)

#6 · Dec 27, 2004, 19:12 · iank

Quote from: Banjoshee ink, has something happened to make you doubt?

For me, I found it took some time to sort out imaginings from actual Apes. And sometimes APs can seem like imaginings.

Consider this the grand exploration and that you are mapping uncharted territory. Once you can say, Yes, I am here. This is real AP and not my imagining, well, the fun begins.

Course it's not everyone's "thing."
yes i had my first ap.did you read my post? it was unbelievable so real. im new to this, maybe i sound a little naive
but this is a giant step im taking.
i can't wait for my next one..

#7 · Dec 27, 2004, 21:13 · Nay

Maybe I'm the odd ball out, but the fact that he said our projections are mere dreams really doesn't upset me so much.  I mean, I've had some dreams that have been equal to any projections I've had over the years.

Who's to say that the people who have spectacular dreams aren't people whom are having true experiences, but have learned how to punch through that veil in another way?  I say this because I think this is what has been happening to me for years.

I don't remember if I told this dream on the forums (pardon if you have to hear it again) but this is only one example of the dreams I have.

I found myself facing a tall tower like structure.  At that time I was having some problems with heights and such, so I looked at this tower and thought.. 'oh great' :?

I started up the outside of the tower and let me tell you it was hard.  I was in constant fear while scaling this monsterous thing.  In certain parts I had to reach really far, thus reminding me of how high I was.  I swear it took forever, or at least it felt that way.. :)

I finally made it by reaching across a chasm between me and the floor of the top of the tower.  I layed there breathing heavy and loving the fact that I made it...truly, I was smiling and patting myself on the back.

I then heard this voice saying....."You know you make things harder than they need to be, you could have used the stairs on the INSIDE of the tower"

I was ticked! :lol: How dare they (whomever that is) make me scale this tower in complete and utter fear, when the whole time I could have taken the easy way...the stairs!

AHHHHHHHHH...but that is the point, isn't it? :wink:

Nay

#8 · Dec 27, 2004, 22:53 · Nostic

Quote from: Nay Maybe I'm the odd ball out, but the fact that he said our projections are mere dreams really doesn't upset me so much.  I mean, I've had some dreams that have been equal to any projections I've had over the years.

Who's to say that the people who have spectacular dreams aren't people whom are having true experiences, but have learned how to punch through that veil in another way?  I say this because I think this is what has been happening to me for years.

I don't remember if I told this dream on the forums (pardon if you have to hear it again) but this is only one example of the dreams I have.

I found myself facing a tall tower like structure.  At that time I was having some problems with heights and such, so I looked at this tower and thought.. 'oh great' :?

I started up the outside of the tower and let me tell you it was hard.  I was in constant fear while scaling this monsterous thing.  In certain parts I had to reach really far, thus reminding me of how high I was.  I swear it took forever, or at least it felt that way.. :)

I finally made it by reaching across a chasm between me and the floor of the top of the tower.  I layed there breathing heavy and loving the fact that I made it...truly, I was smiling and patting myself on the back.

I then heard this voice saying....."You know you make things harder than they need to be, you could have used the stairs on the INSIDE of the tower"

I was ticked! :lol: How dare they (whomever that is) make me scale this tower in complete and utter fear, when the whole time I could have taken the easy way...the stairs!

AHHHHHHHHH...but that is the point, isn't it? :wink:

Nay
LOL, great lesson Nay. And did you happen to read my signature, BTW. :wink:

In regards to the topic at hand, I think the most important thing is to get to the point where you have total conscious control over your experience... from start to end. I think only then can you make a clear and definite assertion.

#9 · Dec 27, 2004, 23:08 · Nay

Hehehe..yes, nice Signature!
Quote In regards to the topic at hand, I think the most important thing is to get to the point where you have total conscious control over your experience... from start to end. I think only then can you make a clear and definite assertion.
Well see...that is the thing.  *scratches head* I've been talking about this for some time now, trying to figure it out.  I can tell the "difference" but that really hasn't changed my outlook on dreams because in my dreams, be it lucid or not, I still act the way if I was lucid.  Do you understand what I'm saying?

I might have changed or done a few extra things, but for the most part, I act normal.  So when does one say...."hmmm, this was a projection and not some dream"?  Ok..maybe that was a loaded question, because I have had some dreams that were totally nonsense, so I'm sure I could distinguish the difference, but when you have a dream like my example above, how does one ignore that for just a silly dream?

#10 · Dec 28, 2004, 00:53 · manuel

Who says physical life isnt a clear dream.

#11 · Dec 28, 2004, 01:13 · Telos

Quote from: manuel Who says physical life isnt a clear dream.
Everyone. Including your gut.

#12 · Dec 28, 2004, 01:18 · Nostic

Quote from: Nay Hehehe..yes, nice Signature!
Quote In regards to the topic at hand, I think the most important thing is to get to the point where you have total conscious control over your experience... from start to end. I think only then can you make a clear and definite assertion.
Well see...that is the thing.  *scratches head* I've been talking about this for some time now, trying to figure it out.  I can tell the "difference" but that really hasn't changed my outlook on dreams because in my dreams, be it lucid or not, I still act the way if I was lucid.  Do you understand what I'm saying?

I might have changed or done a few extra things, but for the most part, I act normal.  So when does one say...."hmmm, this was a projection and not some dream"?  Ok..maybe that was a loaded question, because I have had some dreams that were totally nonsense, so I'm sure I could distinguish the difference, but when you have a dream like my example above, how does one ignore that for just a silly dream?
I understand. But don't you have the experience that when you're lucid dreaming, you're still "not all there". Meaning, after you wake up, don't you think afterwords, why did I act that way, or why didn't I do this, or I should have done that etc? This is how I always feel with my OBEs, and I believe it's because I still cannot project at will. The experience always seems to control me in a sense. And I'm yet unable to project whenever I please.
I want to be able to project with no trance, no meditation, little to no preparation... just a quick "up and out"... just as easy as getting up out of a chair and walking out of the room. Is it that easy for you? I know it's not for me... yet... I'm getting there though. And when I do get there, then I believe things will be much clearer, and I'll be able to make assertions with greater confidence.

#13 · Dec 28, 2004, 01:29 · Nostic

Quote from: manuel Who says physical life isnt a clear dream.
I understand what you're getting at. Your reality is just based on where you're focusing your attention.
I've read lots of things that indicate that the further away you travel from the physical, the more vague and dreamlike this world seems.

#14 · Dec 28, 2004, 01:29 · manuel

Quote from: Telos
Quote from: manuel Who says physical life isnt a clear dream.
Everyone. Including your gut.
my gut??

#15 · Dec 28, 2004, 02:22 · Draege

Today I had what I would label as my second actual "Astral Projection". These two experiences I have separated from many many lucid dreams.

Looking back at both of these astral projections, and with good valid proof from the one I had this morning since its fresh in my mind, I have made these observations-

Astral projections are (for me):
1) far more stable
2) last much longer
3) seem to be worlds of their own, existing independently of you
4) are full of characters that are living their own lives, and don't revolve around you- in fact some may not even care to communicate with you
5) were set off by a _clear_ sensation of leaving my body. I never have this with normal lucid dreams
6) I seem to have no desire to use powers or even try and change things. (save for flying as transportation)

#16 · Dec 28, 2004, 02:55 · Veccolo

A question for all the AP'ers:

Will the AP experience end if you focus your eyes on something? In a LD, the dream will end within a few seconds if you do that.

#17 · Dec 28, 2004, 03:35 · manuel

Quote from: Veccolo A question for all the AP'ers:

Will the AP experience end if you focus your eyes on something? In a LD, the dream will end within a few seconds if you do that.
Nope, if i focus my "eyes" on some thing, the experience will not end, in fact, focusing on some thing enchances the experience, well for me it does.

#18 · Dec 28, 2004, 04:21 · Veccolo

And if you continue with the focusing? In an LD it too "stabilizes" everything in the beginning, but if you continue with it you eventually wake up.

#19 · Dec 28, 2004, 04:42 · manuel

Oh yes, keeps getting stronger, makes your awarness better, a being in the moment thing.

#20 · Dec 28, 2004, 05:42 · Veccolo

Interesting. Thanks for the answer.

#21 · Dec 28, 2004, 10:10 · Nay

Quote from: Nostic
Quote from: Nay Hehehe..yes, nice Signature!
Quote In regards to the topic at hand, I think the most important thing is to get to the point where you have total conscious control over your experience... from start to end. I think only then can you make a clear and definite assertion.
Well see...that is the thing.  *scratches head* I've been talking about this for some time now, trying to figure it out.  I can tell the "difference" but that really hasn't changed my outlook on dreams because in my dreams, be it lucid or not, I still act the way if I was lucid.  Do you understand what I'm saying?

I might have changed or done a few extra things, but for the most part, I act normal.  So when does one say...."hmmm, this was a projection and not some dream"?  Ok..maybe that was a loaded question, because I have had some dreams that were totally nonsense, so I'm sure I could distinguish the difference, but when you have a dream like my example above, how does one ignore that for just a silly dream?
I understand. But don't you have the experience that when you're lucid dreaming, you're still "not all there". Meaning, after you wake up, don't you think afterwords, why did I act that way, or why didn't I do this, or I should have done that etc? This is how I always feel with my OBEs, and I believe it's because I still cannot project at will. The experience always seems to control me in a sense. And I'm yet unable to project whenever I please.
I want to be able to project with no trance, no meditation, little to no preparation... just a quick "up and out"... just as easy as getting up out of a chair and walking out of the room. Is it that easy for you? I know it's not for me... yet... I'm getting there though. And when I do get there, then I believe things will be much clearer, and I'll be able to make assertions with greater confidence.
After I wake up from my dreams I usually don't say, "why did I act that way?"  I have how ever came out of a projection and said.."why the heck didn't I do that or ask this?"  weird huh?
Quote I want to be able to project with no trance, no meditation, little to no preparation... just a quick "up and out"... just as easy as getting up out of a chair and walking out of the room. Is it that easy for you?
Hahahaha..hardly.  I suppose Robert, Frank and Adrian can.  I haven't tried for a couple of months (personal reasons)  but when I was, I had a pretty good success rate, around 4-5 times out of 10, which is A-OK with me. :D

#22 · Dec 28, 2004, 10:18 · Nay

Quote from: Veccolo A question for all the AP'ers:

Will the AP experience end if you focus your eyes on something? In a LD, the dream will end within a few seconds if you do that.
I look at my hands when I feel myself pulling away, I've never had them melt as Robert describes in his books and my dreams are epic length...hmmm..  Oh well, I like my dreams I have learned many of things from them, so I'll keep them. :D