#0 · Dec 12, 2004, 18:13 · The AlphaOmega

Gandhi said that you must become what it is you wish to see.  In recent years I've been doing all things possible to live a life of peace.  No conflict, no enemies, no lying or acts that will bring unnecessary stress or regret.  With that said, I will tell a short story.  Me and this girl have been getting somewhat serious with each other.  Her ex-boyfriend is not at all over her.  In fact he follows her, calls her some 50 times a day, leaves notes on her car, you name it.  The poor girl has moved on with her life and he just can't seem to do that.  The other night he called her for about the 20th time that day and I decided to talk with him.  Calmly I told him that he needed to get over her because it simply wasn't going to happen.  He needed to somehow accept the situation for what it was and find someone else that could make him happy because she has done the same.  Basically just be a man and get over it.  Because I was calm he was also calm and there was no argument or hatred in the conversation.  But about half an hour later he showed up at my house (which he found because he had followed his ex-girlfriend to it).  He began ranting about how I stole her from him and ruined the best thing he ever had... then attacked me.  The fight ensued, at his choice, and I retaliated to protect myself.  His friends then broke it up and they left.  But this only escalated things.  He didn't feel better about the situation because he got out his aggression.  Instead I went from being a stranger to his enemy and he still dwells a lot on his ex and me.  Sorry for that long tale, the relationship story is not the point I'm trying to make or get advice on.  What I'm wondering is this... is it possible to live life never having to get involved in a physically violent situation?  I'm sure many of us have been in bars or at parties where someone starts something just for the sake of it.  There are individuals out there who don't think about peace or care about being reasonable... they want to fight and will attack regardless of your view on it.  So how are these individuals dealt with in a peaceful manner, especially when words and rationality doesn't effect the situation?  I realize that it's human nature to resort to violence in many situations.  Our history back to the beginning clearly demonstrates that peace is not humanities defining attribute.  But does it have to be that way?  Is it really inevitable to have make some enemies throughout the course of life?  Can one live a life of inner peace each day and still sometimes get caught up in conflict?  Many believe that to walk away or try to avoid a fight is being weak.  I think that true weakness is losing control of rationality and reason  to give into one moment of primal rage.  I think that trying to prevent a fight from occurring is progressive, not digressive.  But can it be maintained?  I'm talking beyond even defending yourself.  If you accept defense in a fight as reason to fight then you accept that violence will be a part of your life.  I'm talking pure peace.  No violence or retaliation towards anyone, even if it's defense.  Does anyone think this is a possible goal to attain or should each of us accept that a life of inner and outer peace cannot be maintained indefinitely?

#1 · Dec 12, 2004, 18:17 · daem0n

the peace is in you, not in your life

#2 · Dec 12, 2004, 20:11 · Frank

Hello:

Personally, I thought you got it in one with the Gandhi quote. Simply follow that, it's good advice. I tend to think of it the other way around, though, in that we create our own reality. But I love the way Gandhi puts it, I hadn't heard that before, "Simply become what you wish to see". I like it.

Yours,
Frank

#3 · Dec 12, 2004, 21:37 · Telos

There's a quote by Jesus that compliments Ghandi's, if what you want to see is no violence. You may not like it, but it takes more courage, strength, love, and faith than anything you will probably ever do. "Turn the other cheek."

If you truly want to see a world with no violence, don't escalate it by protecting yourself. Don't run or cower or plead for your health. Throw down your own primal instincts. You'll be called weak, foolish, and a coward. You might even be spat at. But, since you wouldn't have harmed your enemy, you would've been closer to your ideal. You would have given someone peace - the assurance that, no matter what, you wouldn't have harmed them.

If you're not prepared to risk damaging your face, body, or life in achieving that ideal, well... it not must not be that important.

No one can blame you. After all, you're human. Peace really isn't your defining attribute.

#4 · Dec 12, 2004, 22:50 · markulous

I agree with what Jesus said about turning the other cheek.

But with violence everywhere this is one reason I take martial arts.  It's sad that I live in a society where me and my teacher beat up each other every week so other people can't.

It don't think it's possible to live a life 100% free of conflict.  Because there are going to be people out there that are so conflicted within themselves that they must bring pain to others.  And you might just happen to be one of those people.

So far I have avoided physical conflicts in my life.  That is because a lot of things.  I try to have a certain amount of love for every person.  I have confidence in myself that if it came down to a fight I think I could win a lot, but knowing that it is a LAST resort.  And just avoiding bad places.  I don't do drugs, drink, or surround myself with negative people.

A lot of times walking away is the best thing to do.  Sometimes you have to get up and fight though.  If you saw some punk robbing an old man you can't just walk away.  Or a chick getting raped in an alley.   Maybe the other guy has a weapon but that is why I train in martial arts.  And(worst case scenario obviously) even if I died doing that, I don't think that's too bad of a way to go.  I would MUCH rather sacrifice myself protecting someone out of love then dying of cancer or a car crash or something.

#5 · Dec 12, 2004, 22:53 · GorillaBait

As hard as it is, if that is your ideal you must not fight back.  It's hard; I most likely couldn't do it.  But you're not me.  If you want to stick to your ideal, compassion is the only way, compassion under all circumstances.

#6 · Dec 12, 2004, 23:56 · Telos

Quote If you saw some punk robbing an old man you can't just walk away.
I agree. But we should give serious thought to scenarios like this one in order to devise nonviloent intervention (if nonviolence is that which is ideal).

In this situation, I'd suggest approaching the mugger and saying, "rob me instead." Offer the mugger your own money - in doing so you take the onus of situation's danger away from life and put it on money. That is only a short term solution... Throw a 100 dollar bill on the sidewalk, and say that it's his, for he'd have to let go of the man in order to pick it up. There are more creative options, I'm sure.
Quote Or a chick getting raped in an alley.
A rapist is likely to run away if he is spotted. However, if he doesn't, say, "rape me instead." That's not to say that you should offer your sexual services, but the point is to intervene. Get in the way. Be a human shield - not a human sword.
Quote Maybe the other guy has a weapon but that is why I train in martial arts. And(worst case scenario obviously) even if I died doing that, I don't think that's too bad of a way to go. I would MUCH rather sacrifice myself protecting someone out of love then dying of cancer or a car crash or something.
Of course. But did you notice that there are ways of sacrificing your life  for love by protecting someone other than fighting? I don't know what types of martial arts you study, but there is a distinction between offensive and defensive moves. The law states that in certain conditions offensive moves become acts of "self defense" when the very same moves would be crimes in an otherwise peaceful situation.

I am not as strong as Jesus. So I can't claim that I've experienced this high road of nonviolent intervention enough to claim that it is a viable alternative. But it is an alternative.

This whole forum is about studying our existence that is independent of the body. Lots of people are raped, robbed, and murdered everyday. How does it affect their soul? If we knew that they instantly went to heaven, when they died, it'd be easier to accept. Maybe they do?

I hope that as we study the higher planes further we will have objective answers to such questions.

#7 · Dec 13, 2004, 10:20 · markulous

I understand your point and if someone is totally dedicated to being a pacifist and they, instead of fight, just say calmly,"rob me instead" or "rape me instead', then props to them.  But I couldn't do that.

Say for instance someone attacked my wife.  I couldn't just say attack me instead or just jump on top of her and take the hits.  To me the best thing to do would be to beat up the guy then call the cops.  Diffuse the situation as fast and quick as possible.  And to be able to come home in one piece.

Or if I didn't have a wife and someone just came at me.  I wouldn't just stand there, I would retaliate.  I am not saying any of this is right but it's what is right for me.