#0 · Jul 15, 2002, 21:37 · Qball

This is something I know about, but I really don't understand how a spirit can become stuck here. Sometimes I don't believe that this concept is true.

#1 · Jul 15, 2002, 21:47 · kakkarot

just because you don't believe something is true doesn't mean it isn't. after all, many scientists "know" that there is no such thing as a God but many others "know" there is. so who is right?

not knowing an answer is why science is around: to find an answer, but not to make one up.

~kakkarot

Secret of Secrets

#2 · Jul 26, 2002, 05:27 · alfa_33au

QBall, Kakkarott'

Could not the answer to your question, be answered by our human, physical behaviour?
Desire?
Is it obvious that desire of any kind really, can not only release one, but get one stuck also?
This is the side effect of attachment.
I have read, these souls have created it by default, because of ones attachements.

Who knows ay!
I do feel one thing is a certainty, that we are a microcosm of the macrocosm.

Paola.

#3 · Jul 26, 2002, 05:31 · cainam_nazier

Think for a minute....Is there anything that you absolutly feel you must down in your life time?  Surely you can think of at least one thing.

Now what if you could not get that one thing done?

David Rogalski
cainam_nazier@hotmail.com
I am he who walks in the light but is masked by the shadows.

#4 · Jul 26, 2002, 05:34 · jilola

I tend to believe the old explanation that earthbound spirits stay behind because they have some unfinished issues that they are unable to let go.(are they necessary ghosts? Aren't there spirits that normally inhabit the planes close to the physical, like guides, the famed ferryman of the souls etc)

This parallels the problem of having an OBE. We need to let go of the physical body and acccept the new plane of existence for the duration. Any earthly concerns or thoughts and residual attachment to the physical body tend to prevent us from exiting.  Similarly at death the soul has to let go in order to proceed naturally from physical plane to the spiritual planes.

2cents

jouni

#5 · Jul 26, 2002, 10:16 · Jeff_Mash

quote:
Originally posted by jilola:
I tend to believe the old explanation that earthbound spirits stay behind because they have some unfinished issues that they are unable to let go.(are they necessary ghosts? Aren't there spirits that normally inhabit the planes close to the physical, like guides, the famed ferryman of the souls etc)

This parallels the problem of having an OBE. We need to let go of the physical body and acccept the new plane of existence for the duration. Any earthly concerns or thoughts and residual attachment to the physical body tend to prevent us from exiting.  Similarly at death the soul has to let go in order to proceed naturally from physical plane to the spiritual planes.

2cents

jouni
A good movie which illustrates this kind of attatchment, in my opinion, is "What Dreams May Come" with Robin Williams.

Keep smiling,

Jeff Mash, Founder and Editor
MyJokeMail.com - Jokes and Humor
http://myjokemail.com

#6 · Aug 04, 2002, 14:05 · PeacefulWarrior

Jeff is right- check out the novel "What Dreams May Come" (it's a lot better than the film).

According to my understanding there are various explanations to the belief that spirits get "stuck"-

#1- Some individuals in fact do linger.  After passing away, many- especially those who have little to no spiritual understanding and others who have terrible addictions to physical "pleasures" such as drugs, sex, etc.- in fact do linger.  Others do not want to leave, actually the desire to not leave is probably one of the biggest reasons they linger.  Check out Robert Monroe's work to find out more about this.

#2- There are many negative entities that never had and never will have a physical body.  These "negs" as they are often called by some, stick arounfd making life tough on everyone- even if we don't consciously feel theier negativitity, they are indeed real and they try to hurt us.

#3- I was going to write something here, but I can't remember what I was going to say- so maybe someone else can fill in the blank.

-D.

fides quaerens intellectum

#7 · Aug 04, 2002, 14:17 · Tom

I read in more than one place that most dead people don't know right away that they are actually dead. They think they are still alive and attempt to do the same things that they would be doing if they were alive. It becomes frustrating because most people can't see or interact with ghosts. Physical objects can be a bit on the unresponsive side, too. Strong emotions tend to take over more than while in the physical body, which tends to blunt them. Same for thoughts. Logic becomes harder than usual, but eventually they all realize that they are dead.

#8 · Aug 04, 2002, 14:20 · jilola

Someone in an emotional turmoil would be likely to get stuck. The overload of emotions carried to the astral would prevent them from realizing that they are no longer alive.
Also someone who dies while deeply preoccupied by something would still be concerned about the same things and miss that change in their existence.

2cents

jouni

#9 · Aug 04, 2002, 15:05 · Tom

The subject of the thread is earthbound spirits, as in spirits bound to the earth. I have read of helping to unbind such bound spirits. There was also a recent thread about suicide and it had talk about being bound to emotional / mental cycles. I have not yet learned astral projection. Regardless of what I tell you I believe, the reality seems to be that I believe I am a body. Maybe I am an earthbound spirit even now, before dying. In fact, I even have plenty of emotional / mental cycles I am stuck in.

#10 · Aug 04, 2002, 15:13 · jilola

I think the meaning behind earthbound is "discorporate spirit still around the physical plane".
For a long time I've had the feeling that I'm a spirit in a body instead of just a body.  And as such we have the same emotional loops but due to the stabilizing influence of the physical plane we re not completely lost in them.
Make you wonder if the mental disorders aren't just loops of the spiritual plane overtly manifest on the physical.

2cents

jouni

#11 · Aug 04, 2002, 15:18 · Tom

It is true that I was choosing to use the term "earthbound spirit" incorrectly, but it does give the term more meaning for me to think about it in terms of my current experiences. That helps. It is easy to read too much and go too far into theory. It is that sense of being a spirit in a body that I hope to gain from learning astral projection and doing it regularly.

#12 · Aug 04, 2002, 15:23 · jilola

Yah, we were talking about the same thing after all http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile_big.gif" border=0>
I just exchanged a few posts with Frank on "Purpose behind astral noises" or something (I started it and can't remember the title. How sad is that?)
The gist of it was that we are so much more than the physical bodies and that AP is a way of learning about the reality behind our physical existence.
Gaining insight into my existence and spiritual path is the major motivator behind me trying to achieve OBEs.

2cents

jouni

#13 · Aug 04, 2002, 15:38 · Tom

Recently I decided to get a new job. It is like dreaming. I know that the same patterns will continue with the next job and that I have not learned what is needed to break the current pattern. Employers and co-workers decide that I am weird. My job satisfaction depends on how one or two people interact with me. Changes occur, especially with those people. The job becomes uncomfortable and it is only a matter of time before being unwelcome and having to move on to another job. I can change myself and break out of the pattern. Astral projection would help, because of access to my patterns at a higher level. Just dying will probably not change my habits. In dreams I buy things and keep jobs for short times. I read that what we can expect after death can be predicted by looking at our dreams. Instead of learning about the reality of physical experience I contaminate the higher levels with physical existence.

It doesn't really matter what the other thread is called. I know what you are talking about.

What sorts of differences are there in feeling like a spirit in a body as opposed to living in a body and hoping to have a spirit?

#14 · Aug 04, 2002, 15:45 · jilola

I can relate to the job part soo I'll just skip it http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile.gif" border=0>

You cannot contaminate the higher existence with the physical delusions. What delusions you have are a reflection of the delusions th ehigher existential yous have. What you need to lear in this life is to see beyond the delusion.
quote:
What sorts of differences are there in feeling like a spirit in a body as opposed to living in a body and hoping to have a spirit?
The major difference is that when you are a spirit i a body you know there is aa continuation to the existence and that what we experience while corporate is only one step in a long journey of evolution. When you are just a body hoping to have a spirit you are limited to what faith you can muster. There is no sense of continuation beyond the dark veil that we call death.

2cents

jouni

#15 · Aug 04, 2002, 16:00 · Tom

In a Silva method system I listened to on tape, it said that it is not possible to change the way we think and believe from a state of mind associated with beta brainwaves. It said that beliefs can be examined in a theta state and changed in alpha. It sounded like self-hypnosis. I have not learned to do it yet, and might not learn.

It does seem like there is something which will continue past death, but it is not something of which I am aware through direct experience. It just sounds correct. Is it an actual, vivid, and living experience for you to know that you are a spirit in a body?

#16 · Aug 04, 2002, 16:07 · jilola

I forget which is which. Theta==sleep/trance and alpha== waking state?
If so the I agree. We can examine our self  and beliefs with respect to the totality of existence in this state and then transform the knowledge into changes in the physical/waking wold.

I know I am a spirit who has continued existence before and after this current life. Proving that to someone else is next to impossible but I don't feel the need to do so. I'm content with my knowledge. What AP is to me is a way to find proof that I can possible present to others as well as a learning tool.
But t answer the question, I have absolute belief in that I'm more than the body.

2cents

jouni

#17 · Aug 04, 2002, 16:13 · Tom

Beta is the typical waking state. Alpha is called alpha because it is stronger than beta and it is easier to detect. It was discovered before beta. It seems that things like telekinesis are more likely to occur in alpha.

#18 · Aug 04, 2002, 16:15 · jilola

Drat, 5 years working with things that record the things and I still can't remember them. Oh well...
I'll get back to you on the subject once I check some stuff.

2cents

jouni

#19 · Aug 05, 2002, 05:43 · Stephen

Talking about earth bound spirits my daughter Abbey who just turned 3 has an imaginary friend .The new friends name is Louise .Abbey says she's bigger than her big sister Emma who is 8 , she wears a short skirt has messy hairand isnt very pretty . Oh ye and she is also dead . Now we dont talk about death as a day to day topic so Ithink it must be a spirt . My wife said Abbey was haveing a full conversation with Louise  in the back of the car as they where driving along . The spirit seems friendly so Im not to concerned. Or maybe it is  just imagination .

sk

#20 · Aug 06, 2002, 16:34 · PeacefulWarrior

I am amazed by how many responses this thread got in such little time.  This is obviosuly a topic that creates a lot of interest.  I would like to see people such as Robert Bruce share there experiences regarding the subject.  Thank you to all who have shared their thoughts on the subject.

fides quaerens intellectum

#21 · Aug 13, 2002, 10:21 · Frank

For people who have not yet projected to the Astral in a controlled way, in order to develop a greater understanding as to why the "earthbound spirit" phenomenon can often occur, it is necessary to understand that a person's collective sense of conscious awareness, i.e. all their thoughts, opinions, ideas, emotions, memories etc., basically remain the same: physical body alive - or physical body dead.

Yours,
Frank

#22 · Aug 13, 2002, 10:35 · jilola

quote:
a person's collective sense of conscious awareness, i.e. all their thoughts, opinions, ideas, emotions, memories etc., basically remain the same: physical body alive - or physical body dead
This is why the emotional content and/or strong attachment to something probably plays a role in a spirit (that's us) remaining near the physical.
The fact is (well for me at least) that we are in essence spirits and the physical body is actually rather inconsequential, a container perhaps.

2cents

jouni

#23 · Aug 13, 2002, 12:24 · Frank

The physical body I think of as more of an interface.

I've viewed a number of these "earthbound spirits" while touring the base-level Astral. While I never yet managed to make any kind of contact with any of them: I strongly believe, from my observations, what keeps them in that kind of loop is gross ego attachment. In the sense that, somehow, while on the Physical, they became completely encompassed by their negative emotions.

To me, perhaps they were sore losers; the ones who could never admit they were wrong; the people who think the world is against them; and they can never seem to comprehend anything from any other point of view but their own; relationships (especially with the opposite sex) perhaps never came easy; and so forth.

Maybe they vowed that one day they would get revenge.

Perhaps that was their dying thought. Not realising such powerful emotion would dictate their future actions for eternity. :)

Yours,
Frank

#24 · Aug 13, 2002, 13:49 · jilola

Interface, yeah that's what I was after. Thanks.

You seems to imply that most if not all of the earthbound spirits are due to a negative attachment or emotional loop. One would think it possible to linger due to a need to look after someone, protect or reluctance to let the love in th ephysical go. But I guess that could be viewd as negative from the outsiders POV. Or maybe I'm the incurable romantic and watch too many soppy films http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile_wink.gif" border=0>

Having seen/interacted with them did you get a negative emoitional impression from them?

2cents

jouni

#25 · Aug 14, 2002, 03:26 · Frank

The base-level Astral is not a nice place. I couldn't imagine any person thinking anything but negative, i.e. releasing emotions of hatred, fear, anger, etc. in this region. But the residents are quite harmless, as they tend to be locked within themselves to a high degree.

I suppose, though, there may be the odd exceptions who might try harming Physical residents. Their powers would be *extremely* limited though. Well, they wouldn't have any power at all, except to look scary.

Yes, there are those who, post physical death, find themselves on the Astral in a bit of a confused state. Perhaps they might be concerned about loved ones they left behind, or whatever. But eventually these people will get scooped up and taken to resting places, where other residents will explain to them about what's what in the Astral.

If they are only just reachable, for example, they might get put on an Astral train for a number of years until something in their surroundings jogs them awake. Like people try pulling someone out of a coma on the Physical. They play their favourite music, or put a plate of their favourite food under their nose, and so forth.

But not all "earthbound spirits" are out to do damge. Some people get stuck just out of sheer terror or fright which maybe came about as a result of the way in which they left the Physical.

Yours,
Frank

#26 · Aug 14, 2002, 04:03 · jilola

So the move from the physical to astral is normally automatic and doesn't require an act of will on the part of the recently decceased? This move can be prevented by being locked in an emotional loop or strong negative attachment too the physical.
Just one question about a term that's cropped up a bit in this thread. What is the base-level astral in relation to real-time zone mentioned ellsewhere and the astral proper so to speak?

2cents

jouni

#27 · Aug 14, 2002, 05:39 · Frank

Once the physical-body dies you have no choice but to enter the Astral realms. The only question is where you end up.

Large numbers of people naturally gravitate to belief-system areas (Monroe's Focus 24, 25 & 26) and some go beyond that into what is generally called the true afterlife region (Monroe's Focus 27, and beyond).  But there are a number of exceptions as we have discussed.

The belief-system areas can be quite wacky and "beliefs" are not solely restricted to religious beliefs.

For example, I once came across a whole community who "believed" they were under some kind of military rule. I was chatting to some locals and suddenly these sirens went off, and they told me to get inside quick as there was a curfew. I just stood there curious as to what would happen next, while people were running for cover in all directions.

A few minutes later, I'm the only one left out on the street. This soldier approached, waving his arms and shouting for me to get inside. Playing along I scuttled off into the nearest building. Inside were a load of people, all huddled together, waiting for the curfew to finish.

As I say, things can get too wacky to comprehend to the extent where it becomes virtually impossible not to laugh; which I feel I ought not to do, so I zip back to the Physical and project to somewhere else. (Eventually I am hoping to be able to learn to navigate from region to region, rather than have to go back to Physical each time I want to project to some other place.)

Base-level Astral is next one up from the RT-zone. My opinion is that it is not a proper region but some kind of buffer-zone between the Physical -release- RT Zone and the Astral proper.

Yours,
Frank

#28 · Aug 14, 2002, 11:44 · jilola

That would easily lead one to surmise that the christian heaven and hell are a part of the base-level astral.
Shoot, I really need to become able to AP consciously. I've been trying to put together a representation of the astral based on the descriptions available but it's not easy as is to be expected. The buffer zone idea makes a lot of sense. It's a bit hard to imagine the planes as crisply discrete so a layer of glue in the middle makes  for a more natural configuration. (Can you tell I like theorizing about things http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile_big.gif" border=0>)

2cents

jouni

#29 · Aug 14, 2002, 11:57 · Frank

The heaven and hell stuff is more to do with the belief-system areas. Though anyone who gets caught in the base-level Astral exists primarily in their own private hell, I guess. Well, that's how it looks to me.

Many regions of the Astral are ever so like the Physical in many ways. As I said on another post, sometimes I have to Astrally pinch myself just to make sure I'm projecting. :)

Yours,
Frank

#30 · Aug 14, 2002, 11:59 · jilola

Ah I see. So your view is that the belief-system areas are separate from the base level instead of being a part of it?

2cents

jouni

#31 · Aug 14, 2002, 12:15 · Frank

Jouni, it's like going to a multi-level department store.

All the floors, collectively, form the store. So, in that sense, they are intrinsically connected. But each floor could be entirely different in character.

Yours,
Frank